southwind
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No one is trying to decieve anyone..................again, I'll ask, "Were you here during the Rif process" ? :blink:
IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF TIME !
- Thread starter southwind
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No one is trying to decieve anyone..................again, I'll ask, "Were you here during the Rif process" ? :blink:
Kev3188
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Great.
Now point me to the nearest written policy that shows DL employees currently have bumping rights (and not just the ability to move to an open position).
WorldTraveler
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PMNLet me be more direct.
DL has never allowed its employees to bump another person of the same classifcation. The concept comes from the IAM CBA w/ NW - which Southwind has long railed against.
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I agree that the issue is tangential - not necessarily irrelevant, though.
Per its guidance to Wall Street, DL IS reducing mainline capacity this winter - but most of it is coming from int'l flying where the proportion of job reductions comes much more from crews than ground staff. Still, DL faces a tricky balance given that the FAs still work under separate agreements and the int'l flight reductions are not uniform by base - meaning that it is possible that DL's NYC FAs - which are taking the brunt of the flight reductions - might end up having to work trips out of PMNW bases - perhaps 4-5 day trips - in order to keep the balance between PMNW and PMDL FA bases - but then there is not likely going to be a consistent balance between the number of PMNW and PMDL taking packages so there are a whole lot of variables that have to be sorted out
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Further, to your point, on the domestic network, the most high profile reductions at a station level are happening in Delta Connection cities - not mainline.
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Not sure what dept. Southwind is in or attempts to speak/advocate for, but if the discussion is about ACS, then it is irrelevant... there is no bumping and there are likely to be no cuts after the voluntary programs are sorted out.
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For in-flight, the calculations are different based on the degree of cuts in int'l flying and where those cuts are happening.
Either way, there will not be any bumping of PMNW people by PMDL people.
DL has never allowed its employees to bump another person of the same classifcation. The concept comes from the IAM CBA w/ NW - which Southwind has long railed against.
.
I agree that the issue is tangential - not necessarily irrelevant, though.
Per its guidance to Wall Street, DL IS reducing mainline capacity this winter - but most of it is coming from int'l flying where the proportion of job reductions comes much more from crews than ground staff. Still, DL faces a tricky balance given that the FAs still work under separate agreements and the int'l flight reductions are not uniform by base - meaning that it is possible that DL's NYC FAs - which are taking the brunt of the flight reductions - might end up having to work trips out of PMNW bases - perhaps 4-5 day trips - in order to keep the balance between PMNW and PMDL FA bases - but then there is not likely going to be a consistent balance between the number of PMNW and PMDL taking packages so there are a whole lot of variables that have to be sorted out
.
Further, to your point, on the domestic network, the most high profile reductions at a station level are happening in Delta Connection cities - not mainline.
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Not sure what dept. Southwind is in or attempts to speak/advocate for, but if the discussion is about ACS, then it is irrelevant... there is no bumping and there are likely to be no cuts after the voluntary programs are sorted out.
.
For in-flight, the calculations are different based on the degree of cuts in int'l flying and where those cuts are happening.
Either way, there will not be any bumping of PMNW people by PMDL people.
Kev3188
Veteran
Nobody's arguing any of that.
Southwind made a claim that he-as a DL employee- has bumping rights. I'm looking for proof.
I've read the Tech Ops/GSE policy from 12/08, but I'll make it even easier:
Can you bump anywhere your seniority can hold? Who makes the ultimate decision; the employee, or the company?
Does that same policy apply to any other ground based work groups?
Southwind made a claim that he-as a DL employee- has bumping rights. I'm looking for proof.
I've read the Tech Ops/GSE policy from 12/08, but I'll make it even easier:
Can you bump anywhere your seniority can hold? Who makes the ultimate decision; the employee, or the company?
Does that same policy apply to any other ground based work groups?
WorldTraveler
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you apparently have the policies that say bumping is not permitted.
I do not have the policies but I do know bumping is not something DL has ever permitted for ground personnel. Even though FAs and pilots have seniority based bumping rights by equipment or base, it does not translate into forcing someone else to lose their job.
I also said that it is highly unlikely to be an issue for ground personnel and likely unlikely for in-flight personnel given that in-flight always heavily participates in voluntary separation programs. Even if there is low participation - also highly unlikely, DL can assign trips for FAs in such a way to spread the cuts across all bases - esp. since the cuts are likely short-lived... DL is already dropping hints about new growth next year and has reinstated as of the spring many of the winter season int'l cuts.
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If the point of the discussion is to get to the truth - both existing and any reasonable scenario, then we have arrived there.
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I am still interested in the size of the total participation in the voluntary programs but given that DL has targeted some of the steepest flight reductions in the industry, I expect it says they have the employee participation in the voluntary programs to permit the cuts.... no other airline is offering a similarly large voluntary program and they also are not cutting their capacity in such a way. The two go hand in hand. No airline has said anything about expecting - even hinting - at involuntary reductions.
I do not have the policies but I do know bumping is not something DL has ever permitted for ground personnel. Even though FAs and pilots have seniority based bumping rights by equipment or base, it does not translate into forcing someone else to lose their job.
I also said that it is highly unlikely to be an issue for ground personnel and likely unlikely for in-flight personnel given that in-flight always heavily participates in voluntary separation programs. Even if there is low participation - also highly unlikely, DL can assign trips for FAs in such a way to spread the cuts across all bases - esp. since the cuts are likely short-lived... DL is already dropping hints about new growth next year and has reinstated as of the spring many of the winter season int'l cuts.
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If the point of the discussion is to get to the truth - both existing and any reasonable scenario, then we have arrived there.
.
I am still interested in the size of the total participation in the voluntary programs but given that DL has targeted some of the steepest flight reductions in the industry, I expect it says they have the employee participation in the voluntary programs to permit the cuts.... no other airline is offering a similarly large voluntary program and they also are not cutting their capacity in such a way. The two go hand in hand. No airline has said anything about expecting - even hinting - at involuntary reductions.
Kev3188
Veteran
Again, none of that is in question.
No one's predicting furloughs or any other scenario. Another poster claimed "we" (as in DL) have bumping rights. I'm still waiting for their answer.
We have not "arrived" at anything, nor will we until he/she responds.
No one's predicting furloughs or any other scenario. Another poster claimed "we" (as in DL) have bumping rights. I'm still waiting for their answer.
We have not "arrived" at anything, nor will we until he/she responds.
southwind
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Again Kev, "WE'RE YOU WORKING FOR DELTA AIRLINES DURING THE RIF?"
For some reason your very afraid to answer this one, very simple question, with a simple yes or no ! :unsure:
I will be more than happy to answer your question, concerning "Bumping", if and when you answer mine. I did, btw, ask mine first !
For some reason your very afraid to answer this one, very simple question, with a simple yes or no ! :unsure:
I will be more than happy to answer your question, concerning "Bumping", if and when you answer mine. I did, btw, ask mine first !
Kev3188
Veteran
How many time are you gonna ask me a question you already know the answer to?
QA4Jet-A
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SW, Can you post an answer that makes sense and has substance? Who cares about your question. If you asked me about a RIFF, I'd ask what Guitar Player and song you are referring to? Eric Clapton? Next question is, Why do you care if anyone else knows the answer? Would that answer Kev's Question? No, It is directed at you, only you, so answer it. This is between you and him so get with the program and answer! Prove that YOU can Bump! Show Documentation! If all you can do is Dodge and Evade, one might not take your answers very seriously!
southwind
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Another one who apparently wasn't here during the Rif. And I'll take Kev's refusal to anwser my question as , he also wasn't here during the Rif.
Guess I'll Man-up , instead of Kev !
Now pay attention !
During the Rif, I and all other Delta Techops employees, were able to "BUMP" a lower seniority employee, in the same classification, out of their position, which they , in turn, were able to do the same to a lower seniority employee !
Now ...........go ahead and spin it, paint it or what ever it is you union peeps do with it, in order to feel good !
Kev3188
Veteran
I didn't respond because-AGAIN- you know the answer. And, really, who gives a sh*t if anyone else knows: I'm asking you, and you could've very easily responded.
EDIT: In hindsight, I realize that abstract and/or complex thought might not be your strong suit. I joined the DL "family" through the merger w/NW (which you already know), and you know when the last RIF was; that's an easy puzzle to solve for most people over age 6, but maybe not all of them...
Anyway, all that ranting, and you still haven't touched on the following:
EDIT: In hindsight, I realize that abstract and/or complex thought might not be your strong suit. I joined the DL "family" through the merger w/NW (which you already know), and you know when the last RIF was; that's an easy puzzle to solve for most people over age 6, but maybe not all of them...
Anyway, all that ranting, and you still haven't touched on the following:
- That policy for TOC and/or GSE is still in effect or was a 1 time deal.
- If it's still in effect, who ultimately controls where you exercise to: the employee or the company?
- Do any other ground based work groups have the same (or any) ability to do the same?
southwind
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To answer all your questions above, I have yet to see Delta treat an employee un-fairly , whether it be pay, bumping or even buy-outs ! In fact , we've weathered the past 10 years, better that most union peeps I know !
But , I know, " You need it in writing" !
Well, let me ask you this then.......... What in the hell good did " Having it in writing" do for the NW mechanics ?
Don't worry though, I'm sure there will be yet another vote for the IAM and when they get voted down again, you'll be back here...........again, wondering why !
Kev3188
Veteran
You haven't answered anything. Try again.
QA4Jet-A
Veteran
... and I know what the former MX people from DFW feel about the DL 'Trim' Plan. They all lost their Jobs when DFW shut down it's MX Base. Most told me they were told, 'This is the last place you will ever work'! Guess what SW, They went to work for AirTran making more $. Now, they will work for WN and make better $. I sometimes wonder the flavor of the Kool-Aid you drink! Get a Grip!
