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John Kerringan out and Joe Gordon in.

I've been asking that very question for a long time; all I've gotten for my trouble is rhetoric and professions of never-ending love for del Femine's dues machine and alternately, the Teamsters.

I feel the main reason amfa made any representational inroads at all is because it wasn't subject to the AFL-CIO's no-raid policies, not so much that there was a better product offered. I believe the Teamsters saw this and capitalized on it, disaffiliating from the AFL-CIO (their stated reason was they weren't happy with the AFL-CIO's organizing rules). They're now free to "raid" also, if you will. Not sure if that's a better choice - to modify one of amfa's campaign sayings, "Why drive the truck when you can fly?"

I agree - where is there to go?
Seems to me if AMFA was a "dues machine" as you state, then why in the hell did they strike NWA and lose so much money? Wouldn't they have swallowed the twu/iam mantra of "live to fight another day" or the infamous, "We'll git 'em next time"??? So many questions that I am sure you have an answer for.

I also would question the statement you make of the "inroads". If the AMFA didn't get the best contract yet to be matched at NWA in 2000, then what union has regarding airlines? Sure as hell wasn't the iam or the twu, now was it? No sir, those two unions sold out at every turn, as I'm sure you'll remember.

"We are the Union".....except when the twu International decides to override the membership when it suits them.
 
Many people knock the TWU for being the sellout paper tiger that it is. What many don't realize is that there is nothing wrong with the TWU. Under the umbrella of the AFL-CIO, the TWU is operating the way it is supposed to. That is, not to represent the best interest of the membership but to promote the Samuel Gompers "business unionism" model. Business unionism basically shills for the man. Business unionism keeps any so called radicals (real union people) in check and works hand in hand with business in the hopes that by playing dead, the man will throw them a few table scraps. I cannot forget to mention that a business union's main concern is its bottom line, ie. its dues collecting racket. One would think that with all those dues dollars we would have a decent strike fund. Then again, strikes and strike funds go against the business union model.

9999. Maintenace entry. TWU inop, sold us down the river again.
Joe Blowe Mechanic :angry:

KF. TWU ops check normal. Suggest you grow a pair and throw the bums out.

:up:
 
It’s my belief that they have an agreement with the AFL-CIO that they will not raid another AFL-CIO union
Not a belief, it is fact that the Change to Wi crowd and the AFL-CIO have a no raid clause between their organizations. In fact they only just re-upped it recently for a few more years.
 
I've been asking that very question for a long time; all I've gotten for my trouble is rhetoric and professions of never-ending love for del Femine's dues machine and alternately, the Teamsters.

I feel the main reason amfa made any representational inroads at all is because it wasn't subject to the AFL-CIO's no-raid policies, not so much that there was a better product offered. I believe the Teamsters saw this and capitalized on it, disaffiliating from the AFL-CIO (their stated reason was they weren't happy with the AFL-CIO's organizing rules). They're now free to "raid" also, if you will. Not sure if that's a better choice - to modify one of amfa's campaign sayings, "Why drive the truck when you can fly?"

I agree - where is there to go?

If I recall it was "Bus" not "truck".

Where could we go? Right now we have three choices.
1. AMFA,
2. Start an entirely new union that goes for everyone, thus making it more difficult for the NMB to stifle an election ,or
3. reform the TWU,make sure you get leaders in place that will make changes at the next convention.

1. AMFA while some claim that NWA was a fatal setback for AMFA it wasnt. The reasons for AMFA remain, however it must be noted that even if all or most of the mechanics end up in AMFA there is still weakness in the structure of craft unionism where there is not cooperation with other craft unions. Pilots and Flight Attendants have craft unions and they didnt fare much better than other workers. The RLA and the commonality of court interference makes cooperation a necessity. However if the choice is between staying with an organization structured like the TWU and AMFA clearly AMFA is a better choice.

2. Start an entirely new union that goes for everyone. Everyone at every airline. Huge undertaking and it would face resistance from both the industry and the labor. But if succeesful it would be the most powerful union in the country. Instead of having unions tripping over each other in order to grant the carrier where their dues come from the most concessions the union could allow workers to have portable seniority. Labor costs would be determined by management exoprtise instead of worker concessions, as it should be. Management would actually have to earn their money though skill and intelligence instead of thuggery and deciet.

3.Reform the TWU. While this may seem at face value to be the easiest option you have to consider the fact that even if successful at best we end up with a better union in a structure thats flawed when looked at as an industry. Even a reformed TWU would have AA members that have too much invested in things that are out of their control. Having your life tied to any one corporation is the most perilous of situations that any worker could ever be in. The owner could at any time decide to liquidate. Companies use that as a threat to gain concessions. If workers had more portability it would be easier to ignore such threats.

That said, reforming the TWU is still a worhwhile undertaking, certainly a better choice than doing nothing.

How can we reform the TWU? Well first of all we have to break down what is wrong with the TWU, what needs to be addressed? Some items are confined and unique to the AA/TWU system and others to the TWU as a whole.

Problems unique to AA/TWU.

International ownership of the contract.

If we can chose those who control the contract then we really dont have a contract, the TWU International has a contract and they are not accountable to us if we elect to stay in the TWU.

How can we get ownership of the contract? Well the real question is "Why dont we have ownership?".
TWU Local 100 has 30,000 members under one contract, why cant 30,000 TWUAA members be in one local? Well one answer to that was "geography". Members were spread across the country so the membership was divided into many seperate Locals. The International used this as an excuse to own the contract. Since no one local could own it the International had control. Under leaders like Mike Quill this wasnt such a bad deal, even if it was undemocratic, because the leaders were true unionists who really believed in getting workers better pay, however with the degeneration of leadership, resulting in what we have today-Former AA management Jim Little- its intolerable.

If we want to get control of our contracts then each group must get everyone thats in their contract into one local. We could either have everyone from every contract at AA in one local or have every contract group in one local. So instead of having 21 mostly weak locals where none of them have control of the contract we would have one or a handful of stong-well finaced-accountable locals.

Under the present structure there is no accountability, the locals negotiate with the International and the International negotiates with the company. While Local Presidents are elected by the members at AA the International officers are not.Local Presidents and negotiators are blamed for what the International decides. The International covers themselves by having the "committee" vote yes to bring back what the International says they have to bring back. All they have to do is keep them there until they get a majority, a little arm twisting and promises of International positions is usually all thats needed. Look at it from the Local Presidents eyes. If he votes NO he will be threatened and pressured by the International, but if he votes Yes he could land a six figure job with the International. (Worked well for Videtich, Gless, Conley and Gordon)If they all voted "No" the International could put the contract out to vote or even put it in place without membership ratification. (They've done both, they put seperate locals out for a vote despite failing to muscle the Presidents council into accepting it and they put our current contract in place without membership ratification, in fact the TWU testified in Federal Court that the Presidents council has no authority over the union). If we had one local then there would be no reason for International ownership. Local 100 owns their contracts, same with local 236, as well as the SWA Flight Attendants and the SWA Ramp workers, they all have their entire contract group in one local.

Under the current structure there is no accountability, if the vote is not unanamous then any President can claim that other Presidents or the International is to blame. Undr one local there would be no opportunity to pass blame.

Under the current structure most of the AA locals are financially weak. Running 21 seperate locals is expensive, but not to the International, they net the same either way and having the members all split up makes them weak at the Convention. Just paying the officers consumes most of the money that the Local gets, in fact without the illegal payments from AA most Locals in the AA system would be economically unsound, they would be bankrupt. By keeping the locals weak the International keeps the membership weak.

Clearly having 30000 workers divided randomly into 21 powerless locals that have no authority over the contract is about as close as you could get to not having a union while still payin dues. Unionism is supposed to provide unity as well as accountability, the TWU/AA is structured to provide niether.

So gaining control of our contract is the key to becoming a union. However in order to have any chance of doing that we must reform the International. Both objectives could and should be attempted simultaneously.

The opportunity to reform the International only comes once every four years. What we need to do is align ourselves with those who are already in opposition with the current leaders and gain some allies with those who are unaware of what Little and Company are all about. That must be done prior to the Convention. It should start now.

to be cont.
 
Seems to me if AMFA was a "dues machine" as you state, then why in the hell did they strike NWA and lose so much money? Wouldn't they have swallowed the twu/iam mantra of "live to fight another day" or the infamous, "We'll git 'em next time"??? So many questions that I am sure you have an answer for.

I also would question the statement you make of the "inroads". If the AMFA didn't get the best contract yet to be matched at NWA in 2000, then what union has regarding airlines? Sure as hell wasn't the iam or the twu, now was it? No sir, those two unions sold out at every turn, as I'm sure you'll remember.

"We are the Union".....except when the twu International decides to override the membership when it suits them.

From the tone of your reply, I'm quite certain you're not interested in any discussion that doesn't glorify amfa in spite of its amateur handling of the NWA debacle.
 
Goose, you keep bringing up the fact that we basically need to do something. Most of us AMFA guys are willing to try to something different.

We’ve tried to get the Teamsters involved with us and they really don’t seem interested with us. It’s my belief that they have an agreement with the AFL-CIO that they will not raid another AFL-CIO union. I believe it’s for political reasons, like one day they might want to rejoin the AFL-CIO and don’t want to burn that bridge. I’ll stand corrected but the last time they did this, I don’t recall any raids.

This leaves us with only one other option and that’s our own union. Are you willing to step up and help us get the ball rolling? Hell you just might even like us AMFA boys and the hate we have towards the TWU.

We need to get something straight - I have no love for the TWU and its internal organization that is unaccountable to its membership and seems to be a part of AMR rather than a separate entity working for the benefit of its members.

I haven't a clue what to do. I'm not an 'organizer', and wouldn't have a clue as to setting up a representational entity. That I'll leave to someone with the knowledge. Do you have that knowledge? I don't. I spent my working life learning my trade and not weaving a political web.

On the surface, amfa seems great, but looking at its record over time, one has to question it. The 'great' contracts people keep talking about were actually negotiated by former unions, as with NWA (IAM was lined out and amfa inserted on the title page). The same with SWA. I'm waiting to see how SWA chews up and spits out the amateurs when that contract comes due.

The TWU will not allow any changes to its ruling class, nor will it allow any rule changes that make same accountable. Stewart tried years ago to effect some change, but was rebuffed - in response, the TWU further insulated itself from the rank and file.

Please explain to me how to 'get the ball rolling'.
 
From the tone of your reply, I'm quite certain you're not interested in any discussion that doesn't glorify amfa in spite of its amateur handling of the NWA debacle.
Discussion with you? Just the same, if you can't trash AMFA your not happy either. When a company as underhanded and calculating as NWA comes after it's employees, fighting is the one and only choice. I suppose if they bent over and took it like the twu and iam does, you'd be here bitching about how AMFA sold out.

My question to you and all they other twu cowards is, when AA stiffs us again in the next twu farce "contract negotiations", will you fight or will the twu cowardice come shining through for the umpteenth time?

We shall soon see...... 😛h34r:
 
I would like to know what Goose or any other TWU sympathizer thinks the TWU would have done or would do if AA demands 26% pay reduction along with layoff of 52% of the membership like what took place at NWA? Everyone likes to bash AMFA for not laying down to such demands, but I have never heard what the almighty TWU would have done in similar circumstance.

TWU Local 514 had their Shop Stewards taking polls on negotiation t-shirt vs polo shirt last week.

The belief that a shirt with some slogan will prove unity, strength, or bold negotiators has a logic that completely escapes my mental capacity.
 
We need to get something straight - I have no love for the TWU and its internal organization that is unaccountable to its membership and seems to be a part of AMR rather than a separate entity working for the benefit of its members.

I haven't a clue what to do. I'm not an 'organizer', and wouldn't have a clue as to setting up a representational entity. That I'll leave to someone with the knowledge. Do you have that knowledge? I don't. I spent my working life learning my trade and not weaving a political web.

On the surface, amfa seems great, but looking at its record over time, one has to question it. The 'great' contracts people keep talking about were actually negotiated by former unions, as with NWA (IAM was lined out and amfa inserted on the title page). The same with SWA. I'm waiting to see how SWA chews up and spits out the amateurs when that contract comes due.

The TWU will not allow any changes to its ruling class, nor will it allow any rule changes that make same accountable. Stewart tried years ago to effect some change, but was rebuffed - in response, the TWU further insulated itself from the rank and file.

Please explain to me how to 'get the ball rolling'.

The fact is that AMFA actually has a good record when it comes to getting better contracts for its members. With the integration of TWA came some former members from AMFA represented Ozark, we hear of the contracts they got and how even though they were bought out by TWA AMFA made sure they carried full seniority, something that the IAM didnt even try to get for former EAL workers at IAM represented airlines. I recall readng their contract and comparing it to ours twenty years ago and theirs, despite OZarks small size was much better in every way. Higher pay, more vacation, better retirement. I also worked along side a former Branniff II employee who was represented by AMFA and was very happy with how he was represented until Branniff went under again.

Over at NWA AMFA tried to rewrite the whole deal but the NMB basically said reduce your demands or we will make you work under present conditions and payrates forever, so AMFA had to concentrate on the most pressing issue, wages and they brought back the biggest payraises mechanics ever saw. Our raises were a direct result of what AMFA did at NWA, proof of that lies in the fact that for the first time ever mechanics saw much bigger percentage raises than Fleet service and other TWU represented workers.

Your problem is that you see AMFA as Delle-Femme and the people you see promoting it. What you should be looking at is the bigger picture. The idea behind AMFA, getting all the mechanics in the industry into one union is perfectly valid. It is an attempt to correct the main problem airline workers face-unions that compete for members not through organizing but through helping the companies where they have captive members grow at the expense of other unions. Basically unions compete by doing a better job for the employer instead of doing a better job for the member. NMB rules, compulsory dues and geography all work against the members and for the company union partnership.

In AMFA if you dont like Delle, you have the right as a member to not only vote him out but run against him, in the TWU you do not have that right. The election process for officers in AMFA is transparent to the members but serect to the officers. Officers in AMFA are elected by secret ballott membership elections. The TWU on the other hand is the opposite, in the TWU the election is transparent to the officers but secret from the members, unless they can afford to go to Vegas and get permission to be an observer. Only delegates can vote for TWU officers on a visula ballott thats recorded by the TWU so these officers can then take revenge on those who vote against them. In the meantime the members have no real means of seeing how their delegates vote. When we voted against Kerrigan at the 2001 convention I could see Kerrigan glaring down at us.

Like I've said many times I think AMFA is a step in the right direction because it offers the members a chance to really participte and not just follow. However I dont think that even if we all got into AMFA that all our problems would be solved. We need to have broader alliances in order to be successful against the combined opposition of Industry and government. You have to remember that the biggest benificiary of commercial aviation is the government. The revenues collected by the industry are mind boggling, and the more they screw us the more they can raise taxes and take more for them. Their incentive for screwing us is the same as the bosses.

As far as getting the ball rolling I've covered that before, many times. You really dont want to know.
 
I would like to know what Goose or any other TWU sympathizer thinks the TWU would have done or would do if AA demands 26% pay reduction along with layoff of 52% of the membership like what took place at NWA? Everyone likes to bash AMFA for not laying down to such demands, but I have never heard what the almighty TWU would have done in similar circumstance.

TWU Local 514 had their Shop Stewards taking polls on negotiation t-shirt vs polo shirt last week.

The belief that a shirt with some slogan will prove unity, strength, or bold negotiators has a logic that completely escapes my mental capacity.
And many AMFA bashers also forget that the main target of the company was non-mechanics. NWA wanted to completely wipe out that classification of workers.
 
The biggest problem I see with a non-AFL CIO union is that the pilots, stews and FSCs would cross our picket lines in a heartbeat.

But, then, the pilots have already agreed to do that to TWU picket lines, haven't they?
 
The biggest problem I see with a non-AFL CIO union is that the pilots, stews and FSCs would cross our picket lines in a heartbeat.

But, then, the pilots have already agreed to do that to TWU picket lines, haven't they?
Considering that the APA and APFA aren't AFL-CIO, that wouldn't be an excuse for them crossing our line. 🙄
 
Local 100 in NY is a huge local who control their contract not the international. What if all AA AMTs were in one local and we controled our contract?
 
I heard today that the TWU was hoping someone would start-up an organizing card drive of some sorts. Seems the TWU needs a good excuse before negotiations begin that someone is "disrupting negotiations" or that the dissidents are "dividing the membership", they are actually quite scared that there is no available excuse for not coming back with a contract that leads the industry in pay, benefits, and scope language.

I was drinking in some coffee when I was told this, shortly after, I was wearing the coffee as it spewed from my nose when I laughed so hard. I told this fine information clerk wearing his TWU garb from head to toe that it is "always someone else's fault" with the TWU and to not be concerned, they will find an excuse, because they always do.
 

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