407 Driver
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Anyone read this article and have comments?
Longline Vs Shortline
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VERTICAL REF
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A professional longline pilot never tries to lift a load using the "sling shotting" or "spinning takeoff" methods...EVER! <_<
Those starting, in the middle of, or completing a longline career will most definately end up being a topic of conversation in the vortex using the above mentioned "technique" :huh:
All the rest of the article is personal preference I guess?
Those starting, in the middle of, or completing a longline career will most definately end up being a topic of conversation in the vortex using the above mentioned "technique" :huh:
All the rest of the article is personal preference I guess?
I was wondering who was going to post a reply first!
A bit surprised comes to mind. Even if you put aside the long line vs short line arguements, the spinning take-off and sling-shot methods - both named as "high-risk" and "frowned upon" due to safety etc, but still explained as options for everyone to read and experiment with - especially those new to flying, is not what I would recommend. I believe sometime ago, the sling-shotting method was detailed in another mag - Heli-ops I think, and received not so good comments also. What's wrong with saying - can't lift it - break it down some more or we'll bring in a bigger machine. You can imagine what will happen when you are pulling more than the rotors can lift, and then you lose the engine, that rotor is going to slow down so fast.....
The big concern about being in the hv curve with a long-line being the main reason for using a short line primarily is a head scratcher at best.
What about those poor ground crew hooking up a sling or short line - they are toast if anything goes wrong, plus, what chance do you have of not landing directly on the load if the stove quits in the hover - that would generally make a nice mess - tip over, catch on fire etc etc..... ALso, how about keeping that ugly load away from the machine and tail rotor. Most sling loads, other than barrels direct to the hook are generally going to be on the edge of the HOGE height and the benefit of HIGE is minimal at best. Lots more reasons that we all know why a LL is a good option.
There are good points about the pilot limitation and saying no if you don't have the experience, tough on the body etc.
I know Ken has lots of background and experience but I have lots of concerns about what is missing from the article, and what is recommended directly and indirectly.
A bit surprised comes to mind. Even if you put aside the long line vs short line arguements, the spinning take-off and sling-shot methods - both named as "high-risk" and "frowned upon" due to safety etc, but still explained as options for everyone to read and experiment with - especially those new to flying, is not what I would recommend. I believe sometime ago, the sling-shotting method was detailed in another mag - Heli-ops I think, and received not so good comments also. What's wrong with saying - can't lift it - break it down some more or we'll bring in a bigger machine. You can imagine what will happen when you are pulling more than the rotors can lift, and then you lose the engine, that rotor is going to slow down so fast.....
The big concern about being in the hv curve with a long-line being the main reason for using a short line primarily is a head scratcher at best.
What about those poor ground crew hooking up a sling or short line - they are toast if anything goes wrong, plus, what chance do you have of not landing directly on the load if the stove quits in the hover - that would generally make a nice mess - tip over, catch on fire etc etc..... ALso, how about keeping that ugly load away from the machine and tail rotor. Most sling loads, other than barrels direct to the hook are generally going to be on the edge of the HOGE height and the benefit of HIGE is minimal at best. Lots more reasons that we all know why a LL is a good option.
There are good points about the pilot limitation and saying no if you don't have the experience, tough on the body etc.
I know Ken has lots of background and experience but I have lots of concerns about what is missing from the article, and what is recommended directly and indirectly.
VERTICAL REF
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Nomex,
I agree with you 100%.
90% of the time you are in a hover you have ground crew under the helo. On a 4 foot lanyard if anything happens "above" the chances of someone getting hurt or killed on the ground, one would think would be amazingly high!
On the end of a longline, (where you are helmeted, 4 pointed and in a crash resilient seat and cage!) you have time to slide over and save your ground crew. Safety first...
The short line aircraft is sure to roll over after comming to rest upon top of the slingload!
As far as performance goes, the ONLY TIME a short line will out lift a longline is a zero wind, no obstacle, airport departure take off. A short line will never out lift a longline "out of a hole" ever. Guaranteed! 😀
I agree with you 100%.
90% of the time you are in a hover you have ground crew under the helo. On a 4 foot lanyard if anything happens "above" the chances of someone getting hurt or killed on the ground, one would think would be amazingly high!
On the end of a longline, (where you are helmeted, 4 pointed and in a crash resilient seat and cage!) you have time to slide over and save your ground crew. Safety first...
The short line aircraft is sure to roll over after comming to rest upon top of the slingload!
As far as performance goes, the ONLY TIME a short line will out lift a longline is a zero wind, no obstacle, airport departure take off. A short line will never out lift a longline "out of a hole" ever. Guaranteed! 😀
I've drafted a letter to the editor on this one. I spoke to the author at HAC, and tried to reason with him, but he's incorrigable. He said he'd been doing this since the 60s, and I said "it shows". Very old style thinking, and factually waaaaaaaaaaay off the mark as far as stats go.
All of you should write the mag on this one. He's so far out of line he doesn't even know which line he's in.
All of you should write the mag on this one. He's so far out of line he doesn't even know which line he's in.
VERTICAL REF
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I do remember when wobble pumps and chamois filters were all the rave! No one wanted to use an electric pump because of the fire hazard and concealed filters...watch, learn, adapt and advance!
Albert Ross
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My comments are reserved for the next edition of vertical - they are not complimentery
Phil
Phil
JBC - I never thought I'd hear myself arguing with you, but here goes... 😀
Training from a 10' hover to lift, sidestep and land using rotor inertia when the engine fails is one thing. You're preparing for it because you're training.
Having the engine go pear-shaped when you're not expecting it, staring in the sling mirror, a guy underneath you, is altogether another.
I always thought I could handle that situation as well, and practiced it. Then one day in Chibougamau, I had a decel in a Hughes 500D after I was hooked up and lifting three drums of fuel. Before I knew what had happened, I had settled on the drums and tipped over backwards, balanced on the stinger, the cargo pod, and the aft right bearpaw. Still hooked up to the drums.
I'm not saying short-lining should be outlawed, not at all. I agree with you that young pilots should walk before they run, and learning to shortline first is definitely not a bad thing. My problem with this article is that it makes sweeping generalizations that have no basis in fact, and uses scary language and exclamation marks!! to sway the reader to the author's point of view.
Statements like "Other than the safety of the ground crew (paraphrase, I don't have it in front of me), longlining is more dangerous in every way". What a load of horse hockey. Apart from being blatantly false, it makes the point that ground crew safety is not a consideration.
Training from a 10' hover to lift, sidestep and land using rotor inertia when the engine fails is one thing. You're preparing for it because you're training.
Having the engine go pear-shaped when you're not expecting it, staring in the sling mirror, a guy underneath you, is altogether another.
I always thought I could handle that situation as well, and practiced it. Then one day in Chibougamau, I had a decel in a Hughes 500D after I was hooked up and lifting three drums of fuel. Before I knew what had happened, I had settled on the drums and tipped over backwards, balanced on the stinger, the cargo pod, and the aft right bearpaw. Still hooked up to the drums.
I'm not saying short-lining should be outlawed, not at all. I agree with you that young pilots should walk before they run, and learning to shortline first is definitely not a bad thing. My problem with this article is that it makes sweeping generalizations that have no basis in fact, and uses scary language and exclamation marks!! to sway the reader to the author's point of view.
Statements like "Other than the safety of the ground crew (paraphrase, I don't have it in front of me), longlining is more dangerous in every way". What a load of horse hockey. Apart from being blatantly false, it makes the point that ground crew safety is not a consideration.
407 Driver
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CTD, The line you were referring to reads "Other than the safety benefits to men and equipment on the ground, long lining is more dangerous in every way. The dangling line can be an object catcher."
My take on this article is that it's been written from the point of view of someone who hasn't done much long line work, CAN'T long line and never could. (as per his statement "We zigzaged through the sky, barely in control of the helicopter") If any of you feel this way, DON'T fly the line !!
My favorite "line" was the opener, this is where the author lost my interest, "Sure, heavy, multi-engine helicopters engaged in heli-logging will almost always usa a longline...."
Almost always?, I'd say a heavy multi engine logger would ALWAYS use a line, Hey how about it Kamov guys or V-Ref, when the cut-block is wide open, do you ever grab a few turns on the Belly?
JBC, You're correct about you have to walk before running. Did Okie run you guys through the "barrel" when you were out in Penticton in '77? I recall that their training was fairly good, and that I left the school with an acceptable level of experience. Oh and one other thing JBC, quit clubbing baby seals ! 😀
My take on this article is that it's been written from the point of view of someone who hasn't done much long line work, CAN'T long line and never could. (as per his statement "We zigzaged through the sky, barely in control of the helicopter") If any of you feel this way, DON'T fly the line !!
My favorite "line" was the opener, this is where the author lost my interest, "Sure, heavy, multi-engine helicopters engaged in heli-logging will almost always usa a longline...."
Almost always?, I'd say a heavy multi engine logger would ALWAYS use a line, Hey how about it Kamov guys or V-Ref, when the cut-block is wide open, do you ever grab a few turns on the Belly?
JBC, You're correct about you have to walk before running. Did Okie run you guys through the "barrel" when you were out in Penticton in '77? I recall that their training was fairly good, and that I left the school with an acceptable level of experience. Oh and one other thing JBC, quit clubbing baby seals ! 😀
Yup, we had 10 "palm sweating" hours of trying to put the 5 gallon bucket in the 45 gallon drum (total time 160hrs) . Also, you guys, you have to understand our sling enviroment, which is under transmission lines. Not a whole lot of clearance even with a 3 foot landyard.
Also I am discussed that you think we still club seals, now a days we drive a dart in their face as they surface for air or just shoot them while they are sleeping in the sun on the ice..............
Also I am discussed that you think we still club seals, now a days we drive a dart in their face as they surface for air or just shoot them while they are sleeping in the sun on the ice..............
With all due respect 407, CTD and others, you've pointed out yet another example of the comparative 'pussyness' of the 'CH way!' In the 'good old days' we used a quart of oil on the end of a sashcord, setting it into a 5-gal. pail. 😛
Seriously, though, that WAS a frightening article, and the potential to mislead droves of fresh new hands is scarier than hell. I know there are still skinners out there, especially logging with Bells, using the old shotgun. The operators that allow it (if they're even aware) pay a price that sure as hell isn't recovered with the rates they're getting. The abort rate with slingshotting is higher, too, as well as adding to the endangerment of the rigging species. :unsure:
How anyone can seriously argue that longlining is safer than stubbing, except in the rarest circumstances, is beyond me and, yes, let's ALL write the magazine and express our concerns in the clearest terms.
Seriously, though, that WAS a frightening article, and the potential to mislead droves of fresh new hands is scarier than hell. I know there are still skinners out there, especially logging with Bells, using the old shotgun. The operators that allow it (if they're even aware) pay a price that sure as hell isn't recovered with the rates they're getting. The abort rate with slingshotting is higher, too, as well as adding to the endangerment of the rigging species. :unsure:
How anyone can seriously argue that longlining is safer than stubbing, except in the rarest circumstances, is beyond me and, yes, let's ALL write the magazine and express our concerns in the clearest terms.
