Min Stay requirements on all flights?

[UPNAWAY]

There is a link on the Uniyed forum but they issued a pres srelease today saying:

United Airlines said Friday it will start requiring minimum stays for nearly all domestic flights beginning in October. It is also raising its cheapest fares by as much as $90 one-way.

Any thoughts on if we will match this?

To the VFF, would this be worse then the milage bonus or does it not really have that much an impact?

 

[vantheman63]

Any thoughts on if we will match this?

To the VFF, would this be worse then the milage bonus or does it not really have that much an impact?

Now this is a good question and discussion topic....

First off, and I'm probably a bit of an odd duck when it comes to air travel and purchasing it, but I believe, 1,000% in two things: (a.) the air fares MUST rise and they must go up so that people who earn a living working, especially on the front lines, can make a fair, honest and good living. (b.) I believe the ENTIRE industry, with the possible exception of WN, prices it's product completely wrong.

I chuckle to myself all the time...'cause I track it CAREFULLY, but what I pay per mile. I buy F on flights over 3 hours and frequently (read: "almost always") the cost per mile for me to fly, say, PVD-SFO via anywhere, is around $0.25 to $0.30 per mile. Meanwhile, that short hop, PHL-PVD is as much as $0.80 per mile.

Certainly, buying a 253 mile trip, even at $0.80 per mile, is easier on the csh flow then buying an F ticket on CO, PVD-SFO via EWR at $0.30 per mile.

BUT, the product is priced wrong....WN has the only basic understanding of this and this is why they are the leader...they understand pricing from point A to point B on a rational unit basis that pax can understand.

I personally do not buy a FF program...it's a factor, but i buy transportation and the ability to get some work done as well as relax.

Will a minimum stay irritate me? Maybe...but it's not often that I jump around lots...I typically will leave, say, PVD and go to, say, SFO for a week...so, charge away.

But that still DOES NOT fix the issue...it's a band aid and WN will gobble that up like a pumpkin pie on a thanksgiving dinner table...the issue is the product is not pirced rationally...and at the end of the day, WN will chuckle at that...and eat UA's lunch in the markets they compete in.

 

[UPNAWAY]

It is a back door price hike, becuase they still cannot risk losing the business all together on a striaght up fare to fare basis.
I do love rational fares like SW, but the Airlines should have adopted those after 9-11. It would probably be a bad move to try and simplify now while bleeding so much cash.


By the way, ROCK CHALK JAYHAWK!

 

[vantheman63]

A huge, monster reason I wish Mr. parker and Mr. Kirby would, grow a spine and be true leaders is because I think the entire merger started off with the right idea...and then spun TERRIBLY out of countrol....because the leverage was all applied to the employees and the customers, not on changing this silly system that is "legacy air carrier pricing."

You see, untill RATIONAL pricing is in the mix, coupled with the true branding and product differentiation (read: "positioning"), the insanity (and beatings) will not stop.

I promise you and everyone reading this, OIL PRICES ARE NOT GOING TO STAY THIS HIGH FOREVER! If anyone believes they will, they are tooth fairy and Easter Bunny people, same thing as believing this new silliness proposed by the Sand Castle will work.

This pricing of oil is a result of speculation, and it's a bubble, no different then the Dot.com thing and the real estate issue. Bottom Line: "Prices can't go up 80% withough consumption and supply following." And the last I checked, prices were up 80%+, consumption worldwide is up ~15% and supply has remained constant, if anything, it's increased slightly. So, this means prices WILL collapse. It's not a matter of "if," its a matter of "when." And anyone that doesn't believe this, talk to ANY commodity trader with 8 days of experience in these things....runs can and do happen, and go for years...the Dot.com and real estate bubbles lasted 4 to 6 years...and then investors moved on to the next thing, in this case, energy trading. The ONLY real bet Mr. Douglas Parker made when he plunked down that money to buy stock was, "I'm betting oil prices will drop and I'll be positioned for the stock to rebound." Thats all.

Once the price of oil collapses, without rational pricing, you're back to where you started...over-capacity will reign again as will the "do anything, knee-jerk reaction" to get butts in seats. Airlines will do the same silly stuff...all over again, being lulled into this, "costs have gone down and we have higher pricing" thing.

And then we start all over again.

Look, I want it to change. It needs to change. The entire infrastructure of the U.S. economy is hugely dependent on the aviation system in this country. The mismanagement of it is the reason airline professionals have been wrongly beat up. And if anyone doesn't believe me, then please explain to me why WN employees are amongst the best paid...and have upward mobility in their carreers!

So, there ya go...this is why I'm on a mission...this crap is WRONG. And cutting FF miles, which I frankly could care less about since I'm sitting on a half million of them, is a minor, minor issue.

Lets fix pricing, rationalize it...and lets get a fair and honest living paid to the people that make the system work.

P.S. - I'm on a once in a lifetime sports run...My Kansas Jayhawks won the National Championship in hoops, finished ranked 5 in football, the Patriots are perinial Super Bowl contenders, the Sox won it all last year and are looking good now and even the Celtic, with Paul "Jayhawk" Pierce rocked the rocked the hoops world with a world championship. Definitely something.

 

[giantfan]

the Patriots are perinial Super Bowl contenders,

AAhhhem....betcha would have loved to say SUPERBOWL CHAMPS, instead of contenders! Probably not a big fan of my avatar either, huh?

P.S. I agreed with your whole post 100%

 

[nycbusdriver]

....I promise you and everyone reading this, OIL PRICES ARE NOT GOING TO STAY THIS HIGH FOREVER! If anyone believes they will, they are tooth fairy and Easter Bunny people, same thing as believing this new silliness proposed by the Sand Castle will work.

This pricing of oil is a result of speculation, and it's a bubble, no different then the Dot.com thing and the real estate issue. Bottom Line: "Prices can't go up 80% withough consumption and supply following." And the last I checked, prices were up 80%+, consumption worldwide is up ~15% and supply has remained constant, if anything, it's increased slightly. So, this means prices WILL collapse. It's not a matter of "if," its a matter of "when." ....

The price will remain high until about 3 seconds after Congress allows offshore and Alaska drilling. Bush and his Texas oil cronies are responsible for the high prices through their clandestine, but highly effective, machinations to get what they want. They want the law changed to let them drill in places that have been strictly off limits. They haven't been able to get Congress to budge, so they are inflicting heavy financial pain on the US citizenry to force Congress's hand.

Once the bill passes, prices will magically go back to $50 - $70 per barrel. The technique of manipulation is an old one. Create a crisis, place the blame (somewhere else), offer a solution (one which you couldn't get otherwise), and watch the masses line up behind you. Hitler, of course, used this exact same technique to great, but tragically hideous, success....at least for a while.

 

[vantheman63]

AAhhhem....betcha would have loved to say SUPERBOWL CHAMPS, instead of contenders! Probably not a big fan of my avatar either, huh?

P.S. I agreed with your whole post 100%

LOL

I saw the Avatar and just let out a heavy sigh.

That was a GREAT game. The one thing that's been interesting here in New England is that there are no sour grapes. The Giants beat the Patriots. Except for Eli squirming out of a sure sack and then the catch off the helmet, the Pats got b***h slapped. The G-Men and their D-Line opened up a can of whoop ass all over the Pats O-Line...poorly coached, poorly planned on the Pats part.

So, congrats...at least it was a GREAT Super Bowl game....even if it didn't turn out my way. 😉

 

[vantheman63]

The price will remain high until about 3 seconds after Congress allows offshore and Alaska drilling. Bush and his Texas oil cronies are responsible for the high prices through their clandestine, but highly effective, machinations to get what they want. They want the law changed to let them drill in places that have been strictly off limits. They haven't been able to get Congress to budge, so they are inflicting heavy financial pain on the US citizenry to force Congress's hand.

Once the bill passes, prices will magically go back to $50 - $70 per barrel. The technique of manipulation is an old one. Create a crisis, place the blame (somewhere else), offer a solution (one which you couldn't get otherwise), and watch the masses line up behind you. Hitler, of course, used this exact same technique to great, but tragically hideous, success....at least for a while.

The Bush Admin has some, but I would argue, much less blame in this issue then the public (& media) want to add to him.

The factors are that in 2000, oil was removed from a list of commodities that could not be traded on the open market like this. (You do know WN is hedged to the max, right? This is why they were able to do this.) The other big factor is, and I think lots of folks are challenged to understand this, but there is a CRAP-LOAD of liquidity out there sitting on the sidelines...and wealthy investors and hedge fund owners/managers don't want their money in a CD earning 3% interest...so they invest it. The Dot.com bubble broke, they were smart enough to get out while the general public gets beat...they invest in the real estate bubble by way of investing into mortgages, they breaks, they get out of that. And somewhere along the line, they were able to create a story (positioning) that "the next great growth market would be "oil" because China and India are coming on line as modern economies and they would need LOADS of it, therefore, buy futures and buy up!"

Voila....now you have a "bubble." You have LOTS of money (investor liquidity) going into this frenzied buying. And if you look at "bubble history," this is not new....their was one in the early '70's and the embargo was the excuse to build it....but when it collapsed, oil prices lowered significantly, to $10 to $30 a barrel, for nearly 30 years.

The media creats LOTS of noise out there....this "drilling in Alaska thing" is part of it. Can "supply" be greatly increased? Possibly. But there are also emerging technologies that make Alaska's supply look like a couple thimbles full. There is a new technology that can get oil from sand (in certain places, not just anywhere) which has previously been a little pricey, but they now have it down to around $60 a barrel...and the reason they have had trouble getting started? Their is a "concern" that oil will come down in price...to around $50 to $70 a barrell...making the technology inefficient in terms of price.

So, Bush and Alaska are only media driven "problems." The real issue is investors driving the prices. And like Dot.com and real estate, that will change.

Meanwhile, Mr. Parker BS's you, the rank and file, by saying, "I believe so much in our company and plan, I'm going to put a year's worth of salary into stock and show you my faith." And (some) people buy into it....when in reality, the man was only betting on one thing: That oil prices WILL come down.

And boy was he brave predicting that: NOT!

 

[tech2101]

The Bush Admin has some, but I would argue, much less blame in this issue then the public (& media) want to add to him.

The factors are that in 2000, oil was removed from a list of commodities that could not be traded on the open market like this. (You do know WN is hedged to the max, right? This is why they were able to do this.) The other big factor is, and I think lots of folks are challenged to understand this, but there is a CRAP-LOAD of liquidity out there sitting on the sidelines...and wealthy investors and hedge fund owners/managers don't want their money in a CD earning 3% interest...so they invest it. The Dot.com bubble broke, they were smart enough to get out while the general public gets beat...they invest in the real estate bubble by way of investing into mortgages, they breaks, they get out of that. And somewhere along the line, they were able to create a story (positioning) that "the next great growth market would be "oil" because China and India are coming on line as modern economies and they would need LOADS of it, therefore, buy futures and buy up!"

Voila....now you have a "bubble." You have LOTS of money (investor liquidity) going into this frenzied buying. And if you look at "bubble history," this is not new....their was one in the early '70's and the embargo was the excuse to build it....but when it collapsed, oil prices lowered significantly, to $10 to $30 a barrel, for nearly 30 years.

The media creats LOTS of noise out there....this "drilling in Alaska thing" is part of it. Can "supply" be greatly increased? Possibly. But there are also emerging technologies that make Alaska's supply look like a couple thimbles full. There is a new technology that can get oil from sand (in certain places, not just anywhere) which has previously been a little pricey, but they now have it down to around $60 a barrel...and the reason they have had trouble getting started? Their is a "concern" that oil will come down in price...to around $50 to $70 a barrell...making the technology inefficient in terms of price.

So, Bush and Alaska are only media driven "problems." The real issue is investors driving the prices. And like Dot.com and real estate, that will change.

Meanwhile, Mr. Parker BS's you, the rank and file, by saying, "I believe so much in our company and plan, I'm going to put a year's worth of salary into stock and show you my faith." And (some) people buy into it....when in reality, the man was only betting on one thing: That oil prices WILL come down.

And boy was he brave predicting that: NOT!

Wow. Someone who "gets it".

Bravo.

 

[FlightChic]

There is a link on the Uniyed forum but they issued a pres srelease today saying:

United Airlines said Friday it will start requiring minimum stays for nearly all domestic flights beginning in October. It is also raising its cheapest fares by as much as $90 one-way.

Any thoughts on if we will match this?

To the VFF, would this be worse then the milage bonus or does it not really have that much an impact?

I saw this on Fox news yesterday. I know US management doesn't want to raise US fares. They would rather us flight attendants be like movie theatre concession workers and sell drinks, candy, and stuff. That is so tacky. We should raise our fares and not charge for sodas and snacks.

 

[FlightChic]

The price will remain high until about 3 seconds after Congress allows offshore and Alaska drilling. Bush and his Texas oil cronies are responsible for the high prices through their clandestine, but highly effective, machinations to get what they want. They want the law changed to let them drill in places that have been strictly off limits. They haven't been able to get Congress to budge, so they are inflicting heavy financial pain on the US citizenry to force Congress's hand.

Once the bill passes, prices will magically go back to $50 - $70 per barrel. The technique of manipulation is an old one. Create a crisis, place the blame (somewhere else), offer a solution (one which you couldn't get otherwise), and watch the masses line up behind you. Hitler, of course, used this exact same technique to great, but tragically hideous, success....at least for a while.

Do you all know why gas prices are so high? Bill Clinton and the democrats. The 1995 bill that prohibits the US from drilling on their property in Alaska, Colorado, Utah, etc. So if you keep voting for the idiots that refuse to lift that ban, then you have no right complain. It is your own fault.

 

[YVINTERN]

Do you all know why gas prices are so high? Bill Clinton and the democrats. The 1995 bill that prohibits the US from drilling on their property in Alaska, Colorado, Utah, etc. So if you keep voting for the idiots that refuse to lift that ban, then you have no right complain. It is your own fault.

Actually no...it's the stupid Republicans this all started when we stopped using the gold standard in America and this was when Nixon was in office when he asked OPEC actually THREATENED OPEC to price Oil in American Dollars, with the weak value of the dollar the prices of Oil has considerably gone up to an inflated trade value speculated at $130-135 when it should be really at $70-75

Thanks Macro/Micro-Economics 🙂

 

[jimcfs]

I saw this on Fox news yesterday. I know US management doesn't want to raise US fares. They would rather us flight attendants be like movie theatre concession workers and sell drinks, candy, and stuff. That is so tacky. We should raise our fares and not charge for sodas and snacks.

Too bad smoking isn't permitted, else you would be the true equals of the old cigarette gals who worked the nightclubs many moons ago.

 

[vantheman63]

Actually no...it's the stupid Republicans this all started when we stopped using the gold standard in America and this was when Nixon was in office

ND, that was the best thing that happened to the American economy....it allowed us to use leverage and exponentially grow....

Disconnecting the greenback and gold was good for everyone, except the "save for a rainy day" crowd. Sadly, most people don't understand that, in order to keep up, you almost HAVE to invest into "good debt."

The dollar sinking these last few years has more to do with emerging economies over seas, lack of new, emerging technology and a concerted effort by Warren Buffet and George Soros then anything else.

 

[700UW]

Even if they permit off shore drilling, it will be 5 to 10 years before that oil comes to the market.

Actually it was Bush 41 who signed the executive order to prohibit offshore drilling, not Clinton.