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chipmunn

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Goldman Sachs analyst Glen Engel told investors, "We cannot determine whether the weak bookings reflect a downturn in leisure demand or caution ahead of the 9/11 anniversary," he said in a note to clients. "Demand weakness cuts across all airlines, weak and strong, big or small, hub or point-to-point."

Chip asks: With a worsening industry-wide financial picture, how will the judge react when the IAM & possibly the CWA attorney's tell the judge how they deserve more pay and benefits than profitable company's like JetBlue & AirTran, when they work for a company that cannot afford to pay its obligations?

Chip
 

Robc98

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
170
0
Hey Chip..I think you can quit reminding everyone that were in dire straits and the unions who do not have an agreement can be slammed by the judge....these posts offer no insight anymore and we know the score....your contract is settled...stick to other issues....this is a dead one....its our fight now....take your ball and go home....
 

AOG-N-IT

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
Chip, I'm usually pretty quick to defend your right to inform us , but you have exceeded the need with the last few jabs you have taken at the Mechanics expense. I can't say I agree with everything that has taken place..but I can sure understand the reasoning behind alot of it. We know you ALPA types have given to the greater good. Use both hands patting yourself on the back. This should keep your keyboard silent for awhile. This continued train of thought will only widen the chasm. Let's see if we can't solve some problems , as opposed to adding to the strife. How about it Captain?? ......Your friend, AOG-N-IT [:bigsmile:]
 
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"how will the judge react when the IAM & possibly the CWA attorney's tell the judge how they deserve more pay and benefits than profitable company's like JetBlue & AirTran"
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Hey Chip,

We're not asking for more money, or shirk our fair share of responsibility.

The IAM staunchly kept things in the contract that most of us don't care about, and then gave away things that we do care about.

The IAM didn't get it.
 

cavalier

Veteran
Aug 28, 2002
2,409
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www.usaviation.com
Chip,

Tell me something, what do YOU think we as mechanics should be happy with? You spend half as much time at work as we do, spewing all your wisdom to the rest of the minions consumes the remainder of your time. Why don't you go fishing or something, gives us a break from all of your infinite wisdom.



Cavalier
(adjective) disdainful or arrogant

PS: I really don't care what you think we should be happy with
 
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chipmunn

Guest
This fight is the fight of every employee because the survival of the business entity is at stake.

There are thousands of employees and their well being at stake and if you accuse me of being deeply concerned about that, so be it. I am passionate about this company, I love my job, and I do not want to see anybody active or furloughed hurt.

I agree its o.k. to disagree or even agree to disagree, but these negotiations are not traditional RLA work. The IAM-M is now embarking on a course in aviation history never before entered, which many bright and informed people believe has significantly increased the odds of liquidation. If that occurs, who wins?

Rob, AOG, Repeet, & Cav, I'll ask you the question again, with a worsening industry-wide financial picture, how will the judge react when the IAM & possibly the CWA attorney's tell the judge how they deserve more pay and benefits than profitable company's like JetBlue & AirTran, when they work for a company that cannot afford to pay its bills?

Chip
 
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chipmunn

Guest
Cav:

Cav asked: Tell me something, what do YOU think we as mechanics should be happy with?

Chip answers: Cav, it's not my position, just like with my CLT OpEd article, to tell you what you should be happy with. The greater question is how do you want to meet the restructuring agreement numbers required for the company to obtain the remaining DIP financing and both emergence financings? It can be in pay, work rules, benefits, or your pension, which is the purpose of the voluntary restructuring. How can I decide for you what is your priorities.

The issue is the ability for the company to pay its obligations, which it can't do or it wouldn't have stiffed its creditors and shareholders.

Chip
 

Lilninj

Member
Aug 21, 2002
48
0
Yes Chip it's about the company obligations. But, the company's obligations include a very large pilot pension plan which they do not pay for out of their own pockets. It sucks resources from the rest of the company and other workers. It's like a black hole. What gets sucked into it's influence can never escape. It's amazing to me how you pilots never respond to why you deserve a pension and noone else does. When people do answer the question, they give a non-answer and talk around it. Admit it, you don't believe anyone else deserves to make a living and get a pension to retire on unless you spend your career on a flight deck. Noone else in this company feels that they owe anything to pay those pensions, especially not CWA which has no pension at all. I'm sure you would not go up to one of our 30 plus year Cust. Svc. veterans at the airport and tell them they don't deserve to retire, go find another job til you die. WE DO deserve a pension, just not as big as yours is. And we have no obligation to give concessions in order for the company to keep paying a huge pension to pilots which they can't afford. Let's all face this fact. If the company can't afford these large employee costs as you say Chip, Then the largest costs have to be cut drastically. That means targeting those pilot pension plans for huge concessions. Hasn't happened. I believe that there are just too many pilot seats on the board. Too much influence causing this company to avoid cutting where it actually needs to. That is why you have more seats on the board, but in this case it works against your moral arguement.
 
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chipmunn

Guest
Lilninj:

I disagree with your comments and the company has publicly disagreed as well. The pilots pension plan is being funded by ALPA's concessions, which are enormous.

In regard to the Board seat, the company provided the IAM (now void) and the other employee groups a seat as well.

The paybacks were negotiated in exchange for the amount of cuts. If a group wants greater paybacks all they have to do is give greater cuts.

In regard to your pension issue I believe your comments are not totally correct. From my understanding the CWA members who had a pension prior to Seth Schofield freezing the program, still do per ERISA. In fact, the funds are vested. In addition, I have been told the CWA has a defined contribution program, but I am not certain of the details, plus a 401(k) plan.

Again, the issue is the company must have the target cost cuts to obtain the DIP financing, TPG emergence financing, and ATSB loan guarantee. This will only be obtained with cost cuts not cost increases; therefore, without restructuring agreements and if the S.1113 process unfolds, the likelihood of liquidation has just exponentially grown.

Chip
 
Aug 23, 2002
406
0
Its not just the airline industry...The economic climate is gloomy as a whole...Look at the stock market as a whole...in the dumps.. Companys like K Mart, Burger King, Ames, Pharmor in bankruptcy...
But everything goes in cycles...there are good economic times...and bad economic times...

Things will improve...(Usually when the Democrats are in the White House.....Wait for the next election....lol)
[:bigsmile:]
 

Bear96

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,926
122
Hey lilninj--

You asked about who "deserves" a pension.

Since you seem to be a little, er, new at the union neogiating game, here is a very old and somewhat cliched saying that is I am sure familiar to many others here, that will come in handy:

"You don't get what you deserve; you get what you negotiate."

Therefore, those groups that have pensions "deserve" them because they negotiated them. Those that don't have them don't deserve them because they didn't negotiate them.

That's just how the game works. Welcome to the real world.
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,070
270
I think the sad mistake with somes negotiating tactics was they approached as it would be in good times > I agree with chip. If these were normal times we wouldnt be here . This wasnt the time to play games with our livelihoods. Did we cause us to be here? No! But we are here make the best of it lay down your swords and work together! Im not gonna bash the iam or cwa even though their vote will affect me .Ill have to pay the price but not as big a price as some of the good folks in both unions now.
 

AOG-N-IT

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
1,132
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www.usaviation.com
Chip, I think that the "IAM Membership" is frankly fed up with the IAM itself. The pork as previously noted is part of the problem. The issue of a "Failing Carrier" having to shell out $1.25M for negotiating fees is frankly insane. Why should a union expect money from said "Failing Carrier" to be payed a dime?..when WE the membership pay monthly dues for such representation to begin with. The poor timing of offering Management bonuses of $6M does not sit well either. It shouldn't with you , if you are half the thinking man I give you credit for!! Had this "Star Spangled" group been worth anything to begin with?? We would likely have been a stronger company..and much better prepared to handle a downturn in the economy/industry. I will not begin to say that I agree with all aspects of things. I have never felt that the IAM represented me for a moment. To be perfectly honest...The IAM has done more harm to me and my work group than I care to calculate. While all the other groups have recieved raises over the last 2 years...My group has waited in limbo on 1999/2000 salaries scales..I was personally denied promotion and a subsequint raise pending contract ratification. Then the glorious day comes. Not only did my salary go backwards from it's 2000 rate...it would stay at that rate for many years to come. Then I have the pleasure of dues coming out of my check..Who negotiates backwards?..Not anyone!! This told me , that the IAM is 100% in bed with the company. The $1.25M only sealed that opinion. Then comes the current situation of being asked for an additional 6.8% plus benefits galore. This for me adds up to around a 20% decrease below my 1999/2000 level. So before you start telling me what's what , as you draw your six figure plus sums. I suggest you walk a day in my shoes. Then you will see why the judge's possible mediation of things , starts looking a bit more appealing. I voted "Yes" for supposed "Greater Good" of all of us...But after watching you dealing out "Left-Handed" Slaps at the IAM and the laboring class...I'm beginning to wonder about that choice. I think you are the one beginning to sweat a little. I can move on to other things if I have to? I may not like it? but I'm prepared for survival. I'm wondering what you are prepared for? , in light of all the less than subtle digs. Are you affraid of having to actually work for a "Modest Living"???.....Ponder that , before you leap from your perch this time. Remember..You have way more to lose than I do. So before you fan the flames with yet another antagonistic thread, think about what it takes to keep eveything going. You need us..as we need you. So YOU had better hope for a happy resolve. There is still a chance that this might not go as far as the judge. So try a positive spin for a change...being negative isn't solving a thing.........AOG-N-IT (and glad to be doing it!!)[;)]
 

Robc98

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
170
0
To BEAR96.....yes your right its called negotiating..which is what were doing(cwa)....and were gonna take this all the way...noone "deserves" anything in this company..and it's our fight to obtain what we'll get....no one else's business......
 

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