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[Hopeful]

This thread is rife with the word "mismanagement," much like the discussions in 2003.

as decimated demand for first and business fares.

If anyone's to blame for the plight of the downtrodden TWU membership, fault lies with the TWU, and to a lesser extent, its members' collective failure to remove the TWU as its bargaining agent. One failed card drive in the past several years and nothing since then. Other airlines' mechanics have fired two unions in the time it's taken the AA TWU members to fire none.

Understand something again......The TWU's main voting block is TULE...Got it??????????????????????????

Their "role call" vote trumps that of the line stations... GOT IT?

With the current salary of mechanics, the cost of living in TUL, one can get buy with less. Not the same for the line stations like NY, CA, IL, FL......GOT IT?

TUL can afford another concessionary package much easier than the rest of us.

THAT"S where the vote lives or dies.....GOT IT?

 

[eolesen]

Gotta admit.....In your eyes, Eric.....AA can do no wrong and the unions are the ones who have mismanaged this company into the ground. You seem to put Arpey & Co. on a very high pedestal. It's not so hard to do when you have had a union in your pocket for decades.
It's amazing how the 2003 concessions were to save AA from bankruptcy, and now because of the economy, they want more concessions and "that's the reality of it all so don't expect any salary and benefit increases......sorry folks......we feel your pain.."

That is, unless you're an executive..

You really think AMR company is so horribly mismanaged? Perhaps you need to get out and experience a few more employers to see real mismanagement.

You have a legitimate gripe over payouts to execs, but that's about it. Everything else I've seen the company do in the past six years looks more or less driven by a real desire to stay out of bankruptcy.

If the company really wanted to file, you'd see the company giving in to just about everything in contract negotiations (the way UAL did), knowing full well the contracts will just be torn apart in a S1113 hearing a few months later.

I'm starting to think that too many of you have become so accustomed to playing the victim, you just don't know how well you have it compared to other companies....

Have you ever gone a payday without a paycheck?

Ever been turned away at the doctors office because the company failed to pay an insurance premiums?

Or better yet, seen a co-worker or relative die, and find out after the fact that the company hadn't kept up the life insurance?

Ever seen corporate funds and assets find their way to a manager's bank account or to an executive's house, never to be seen again?

http://www.enterprisenews.com/news/x565620...ale-this-spring

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-holden-bankr...0,7336544.story

And just to show equal time...

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/pdf/cepr102105.pdf


That's mismanagement.

Let me know when that sort of stuff starts happening at AMR, and you might have an argument.

 

[Hopeful]

You really think AMR company is so horribly mismanaged? Perhaps you need to get out and experience a few more employers to see real mismanagement.

Go back and re-read my post....I made a sarcastic remark about how it's the unions' mismanagement that brought us to where we are. Mismanagement is a part of it and a company's woes cannot be blamed solely on unions.

But let's look at some of the moves by AA which turned out to be a total waste of money...

Investing a ton of cash into RDU and BNA making them hubs gepgraphically too close to one another...only to close them not too longer after...

MRTC....more room throughout coach....millions spent to do it.....millions spent to undo it.....

How about more recently cutting SJU in half? What's up with that?

We used to be able to fly to a slew of Caribbean cities non-stop and now it seems that soon we will have to stop in MIA to go anywhere from the northeast...

How about setting up a "SNITCH" hotline so an employee can anonymously report another employee of wrong doing....with the burden of proof on the accused.....
There's enough electronic surveillance at JFK where they can see you scratching your rear end and it's recorded....I know I know, Eric, every company does that....

This was a better run company at one time....Now it's all about the bottom line and that's understandable.....But please spare me the company's main concern is its employees......Please,.......you know better than that....

 

[Vortilon]

Go back and re-read my post....I made a sarcastic remark about how it's the unions' mismanagement that brought us to where we are. Mismanagement is a part of it and a company's woes cannot be blamed solely on unions.

But let's look at some of the moves by AA which turned out to be a total waste of money...

Investing a ton of cash into RDU and BNA making them hubs gepgraphically too close to one another...only to close them not too longer after...

MRTC....more room throughout coach....millions spent to do it.....millions spent to undo it.....

How about more recently cutting SJU in half? What's up with that?

We used to be able to fly to a slew of Caribbean cities non-stop and now it seems that soon we will have to stop in MIA to go anywhere from the northeast...

How about setting up a "SNITCH" hotline so an employee can anonymously report another employee of wrong doing....with the burden of proof on the accused.....
There's enough electronic surveillance at JFK where they can see you scratching your rear end and it's recorded....I know I know, Eric, every company does that....

This was a better run company at one time....Now it's all about the bottom line and that's understandable.....But please spare me the company's main concern is its employees......Please,.......you know better than that....

Let's not forget....
How much is AA wasting on these politically Korrect claptrap ERGs? Telling us how to think!
Failed hubs....in addition to those listed above..SJC
Bad Investments..TWA, RENO, AIR CAL..............
The Carty years..losing millions per day and doing nothing.... yet taking bonus money

 

[eolesen]

Gee, let's step into the time machine and dredge up stuff decades old...

I guess it was also a mistake that all those aircraft and employees pulled out of RDU and BNA got sent to MIA, which is a cash cow.

Pushing Delta entirely out of DFW and UAL out of the NYC-LHR market was downright idiotic.

And things like AA.Com? What a friggin' waste of money and effort.... You should have just kept paying travel agents those paltry 10% commissions to sell a product that most people are just as willing to buy direct from the airline...

For every outdated argument you have (MRTC was almost ten years ago, the TWA buyout eight years ago, AirCal 22 years ago, and Reno twelve years ago), there are equally good moves most of you are simply too blinded by contempt to see for what they are worth.

I don't question that the employees aren't the first thing on management's mind. Long term sustainability of the company's business model is their first concern. Frankly, without that, the rest of the touchy-feely crap simply doesn't matter.

 

[Hopeful]

Where did I say ALL moves were the wrong ones?
Buying TWA' London Routes and Eastern's Carribean network were excellent moves..
We can back and forth and span the decades......

MD11's? Remember them?
Follkers? Remember them?

As for the RDU and BNA employees, they didn't all take I95 South to Miami to keep their jobs.

I will say this, AA is masterful at intimidating its unions....That is for sure....

 

[FWAAA]

Understand something again......The TWU's main voting block is TULE...Got it??????????????????????????

Their "role call" vote trumps that of the line stations... GOT IT?

With the current salary of mechanics, the cost of living in TUL, one can get buy with less. Not the same for the line stations like NY, CA, IL, FL......GOT IT?

TUL can afford another concessionary package much easier than the rest of us.

THAT"S where the vote lives or dies.....GOT IT?

No disagreement from me. I've repeatedly posted that it makes no sense that mechanics in high-cost cities get the same low wage as the highly paid mechanics in Tulsa, Kansas City and Fort Worth.

One thing is obvious: No US-based legacy airline is willing to pay low-cost-location overhaul mechanics the same high wage that would satisfy the expensive-city line mechanics. Note how no other US-based legacy airline performs all of its own heavy airframe maintenance anymore (except for AA). And it's obvious that AA isn't going to pay you and Bob the $90k or $100k you deserve if it means raising Dave's pay (and his 12,000 country-bumpkin co-workers) to the same level. They're already some of the highest wage-earners in Tulsa - another $20k or $30k and they could live like kings.

So how do you solve that puzzle? How do you unchain yourselves from the Tulsa boat anchors? I'm willing to bet that AA would entertain sizable raises for its line mechanics as long as the overhaul bases saw little or no raises. AA's overhaul may be a bargain at its current wage rates (as Bob Owens and others have argued), but at $40/hour, there's no way Tulsa competes with the offshore chopshops or even the Mobile, Alabamas of the world.

First thing you have to do is fire the TWU. Second is convince your co-workers that it's only fair that line maintenance make $10 more an hour (or maybe even more than that) more than the overhaul base mechanics make. Good luck with both.

 

[Runwaysticker]

No disagreement from me. I've repeatedly posted that it makes no sense that mechanics in high-cost cities get the same low wage as the highly paid mechanics in Tulsa, Kansas City and Fort Worth.

One thing is obvious: No US-based legacy airline is willing to pay low-cost-location overhaul mechanics the same high wage that would satisfy the expensive-city line mechanics. Note how no other US-based legacy airline performs all of its own heavy airframe maintenance anymore (except for AA). And it's obvious that AA isn't going to pay you and Bob the $90k or $100k you deserve if it means raising Dave's pay (and his 12,000 country-bumpkin co-workers) to the same level. They're already some of the highest wage-earners in Tulsa - another $20k or $30k and they could live like kings.

So how do you solve that puzzle? How do you unchain yourselves from the Tulsa boat anchors? I'm willing to bet that AA would entertain sizable raises for its line mechanics as long as the overhaul bases saw little or no raises. AA's overhaul may be a bargain at its current wage rates (as Bob Owens and others have argued), but at $40/hour, there's no way Tulsa competes with the offshore chopshops or even the Mobile, Alabamas of the world.

First thing you have to do is fire the TWU. Second is convince your co-workers that it's only fair that line maintenance make $10 more an hour (or maybe even more than that) more than the overhaul base mechanics make. Good luck with both.

I agree line MTX should make more, also east and west coast stations should make more, but as long as Tulsa controls the vote line MTX is screwed. <_<

 

[Boomer]

This thread is rife with the word "mismanagement," much like the discussions in 2003.

While AMR may have been completely mismanaged, it's not likely that mismanagement caused the current crisis any more than in 2001-03. Why? Maybe because nearly every airline is suffering. Continual damnation of management starts to sound like the word "wolf" when nearly all are in the same boat. If AA were the only airline in a cash crunch, the words wouldn't ring quite so hollow.

AA, UA, US, CO and even all-powerful DL are seeing their premium revenues fall (and continue to decline) even steeper than in the aftermath of September 11, 2001. Southwest has reported three consecutive quarterly losses. Oil is now higher than in the hurricane-induced price spike of September, 2005, despite a worldwide recession.

AA's current problems aren't due to its pensions. The problems aren't because of the pay of the workers. The problems aren't due to the $350 million or so paid out in stock to the PUP/PSP recipients over the past four years. Its problems are due to overcapacity of high-cost airline seats relative to the demand for those seats amid a severe recession that has decimated demand for first and business fares.

If anyone's to blame for the plight of the downtrodden TWU membership, fault lies with the TWU, and to a lesser extent, its members' collective failure to remove the TWU as its bargaining agent. One failed card drive in the past several years and nothing since then. Other airlines' mechanics have fired two unions in the time it's taken the AA TWU members to fire none.

FWAA,

When both the company and the union occupy the position that mutually benefits the status quo; and the courts have held that a violation of the status quo run through the bankruptcy courts is still held status quo by the RLA: exactly how is an insurgency supposed to develope?

You and I know that the unions are triangulated: spot-on.

The real question lies in the TWU affiliation with the AFL-CIO and the degree to which another AFL-CIO Union, the UAW, has taken such a haircut given the overwhelming support by Unions such as the TWU at AA and the UAW at GM, Chrysler and Ford for the current political administration?

What now constitutes the status-quo in a post Sect.1113 world for unions like the TWU that aquiesce to every AA demand without securitizing those promises under collateralization agreements for future aircraft deliveries?

 

[frontline]

Good thing we gave away the farm to save AA from Bankruptcy and worked 7 years under extreme concessions.

I think the filing comes before 1/1/2010, we didnt save AA from anything. You cannot save this management team from themselves. Even Consulting Firms seem to leave shaking their heads.

I guess I don't understand what AA managers are doing so "wrong" when it comes to the day-to-day operations of the airline. It's not like AA is doing poorly when other airlines are succeeding. We are in the middle of the pack and doing significantly better than United loss-wise.

Really, after last year's oil spike and this year's depression I think it's a minor miracle we are not already in bankruptcy court. As I said in another thread, credit should be given where due. And I don't see any gross mismanagement at AMR.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

I, for one, miss MRTC. For years I flew AA exclusively largely because of it. Apparently there weren't enough of us to sustain the product.

I think FWAAA's analysis is spot on. I'm certain that the management will never agree to boost the overhaul bases to the wage levelss demanded (nor does AMR have the cash to responsibly do so). Only solution is to split the ticket, so to speak.

 

[777 fixer]

MD11's? Remember them?

The MD-11 was more of a failure of MD management than AA management. If MD had provided an aircraft they had promised on paper things would have turned out much differently. Notice how quickly the MD-11 was sent packing from AA's fleet.

 

[Flyboy4u]

The MD-11 was more of a failure of MD management than AA management. If MD had provided an aircraft they had promised on paper things would have turned out much differently. Notice how quickly the MD-11 was sent packing from AA's fleet.

Kinda of like the Airbus also, Right?

 

[Hopeful]

The MD-11 was more of a failure of MD management than AA management. If MD had provided an aircraft they had promised on paper things would have turned out much differently. Notice how quickly the MD-11 was sent packing from AA's fleet.

What was it promised to do? Had good range, good capacity....Flew passengers from point A to point B.

What were the Follkers promised to do?

 

[iluvaa]

No disagreement from me. I've repeatedly posted that it makes no sense that mechanics in high-cost cities get the same low wage as the highly paid mechanics in Tulsa, Kansas City and Fort Worth.

One thing is obvious: No US-based legacy airline is willing to pay low-cost-location overhaul mechanics the same high wage that would satisfy the expensive-city line mechanics. Note how no other US-based legacy airline performs all of its own heavy airframe maintenance anymore (except for AA). And it's obvious that AA isn't going to pay you and Bob the $90k or $100k you deserve if it means raising Dave's pay (and his 12,000 country-bumpkin co-workers) to the same level. They're already some of the highest wage-earners in Tulsa - another $20k or $30k and they could live like kings.

So how do you solve that puzzle? How do you unchain yourselves from the Tulsa boat anchors? I'm willing to bet that AA would entertain sizable raises for its line mechanics as long as the overhaul bases saw little or no raises. AA's overhaul may be a bargain at its current wage rates (as Bob Owens and others have argued), but at $40/hour, there's no way Tulsa competes with the offshore chopshops or even the Mobile, Alabamas of the world.

First thing you have to do is fire the TWU. Second is convince your co-workers that it's only fair that line maintenance make $10 more an hour (or maybe even more than that) more than the overhaul base mechanics make. Good luck with both.

I always thought the line should make more than tulsa in high cost areas but when people make statements like Dave and his country bumpkins it does not help the cause I just want my v/c and some holidays back. I would be willing to take no raise so newyorkers could have a good pay hike, but just because i live in oklahoma people assume we are all hillbillies and racist hicks it starts to get on my nerves. So if you think tulsa runs the vote maybe we should try and educate not bad mouth, believe it or not everyone that lives in this state are not complete idots and dolts.