More Questions Than Answers

ohcaptainron

Member
Sep 12, 2002
98
1
Delta Air Lines: More Questions Than Answers
We've seen two major airlines go into bankruptcy over the last two years. Now, we have one of those airlines back into bankruptcy, and the threat of yet another, Delta Air Lines, becoming the third major airline to suffer from a case of Bankruptcy Blues.
But as the situation with Delta continues to decline, and as I find myself receiving more and more feedback emails from both aircraft lessors and vendors of the company, in addition to our usual union sources, I continue to come back to a question I've had for many months.
Is management at the airline really serious about attempting to avoid a bankruptcy filing? Or has management dropped the ball? Or, has management planned for a Chapter 11 filing from the get-go?
Let's backpedal a bit and start with the pilots' union situation.
First, as we reported here last week, the Delta ALPA MEC did agree to make changes in the pilot contract with the airline. These changes were hammered out by both sides on Monday. The general membership of the union will be voting on the proposed changes through Sept. 28.
But contrary to what some media reports have suggested, these changes were changes made for ONE reason. That reason? To make sure the airline can continue to fly, even if hundreds of pilots decide to opt out by retiring early.
This agreement has nothing to do with the bigger issue -- that of major concessions.
So, as of this writing, the Delta pilots continue to be the highest paid pilot group in the U.S. And, in talking to some of our Delta pilot sources this week, it sounds very much like the pilots remain in a "wait and see" mode concerning further debt restructuring.
Mark Streeter, analyst with JP Morgan, concurred with this take in a research note issued Tuesday, saying that "we assume that the pilots want further debt restructuring than what has been announced to date."
Now, let's switch gears and look at what I am hearing from more than one lessor at the airline.
As most of you know, Delta has been attempting to renegotiate terms on some of its debt. The face that the airline is putting on this effort is that it is crucial that this debt be restructured.
But, is this really true? Or is it only true because now management at the airline has backed itself into a corner with the pilots' union? A corner, I might add, that it should not have allowed itself to be backed into in the first place. In other words, it's pretty clear that the pilots' are not going to make the kind of cuts that management says it "has to have" until it sees more debt at the airline restructured.
But whose fault is this?
Talking to more than one Delta debt holder this past week, the feedback I received was heavily "anti-pilot." Not surprising. In addition, in terms of the airline's latest offer to restructure its debt, selected debt holders I was in touch with this past week seem to be lukewarm towards the airline's latest restructuring attempts.
As one lessor put it,
"As you may know, Delta asked its Lessors to a presentation on Sept. 13. This was then followed by a specific restructure proposal on the day after. The formal exchange offer was put out there the same day. I must say it feels like they are running a sham -- little or no urgency in the negotiations and/or efforts to follow-up. Plus, the total amount of the ask exceeds what they said they were looking for from this group. This puts the whole issue of fairness out there. Finally, the advisors have been virtually invisible. Not necessarily a bad thing, but again, where is the "urgency" that [the airline] is projecting in the press?"
Another lessor wrote, "Holly, this is the most screwy thing I've ever been involved with.. Why the hell didn't the airline take the $700 million it could have gotten from the pilots months ago? Now it sounds to me like we have a classic "No-Win Stand-Off" here. And, as far as their initial exchange offer is concerned, we're not biting."
Let's go back to this spring.
In March I wrote here that my pilot sources (and I think they were right on the mark) were telling me the following. One, management at the airline was not negotiating. Rather, management was continuing to "tell" the pilot group that it had to have "x" amount. Then, that amount continued to move upward.
Meanwhile, I don't think there is any question that, at that point in time, almost 8 months ago, the Delta pilots' union would have agreed to cuts totalling at least 20%. Maybe a bit more. Maybe not. But certainly at least that amount.
But what did management do? It did not negotiate.
It refused to go after what was, obviously, money lying on the table in front of them.
Instead, management upped the ante, saying it needed even more money from the pilots. $700 million was not enough. It now needed over $1 billion.
At the same time, management also told the pilot union that it could not provide any justification for the additional cuts, or give the union any additional feedback as to the strategic plan for the airline, as the airline was in the midst of a total internal "review."
In July, the pilots' union put in writing what we had known was the case for months. The union told Delta it was willing to take a 23% cut, or approximately $700 million.
The reluctance on the part of CEO Gerald Grinstein to take the money in March was bad enough. But once again, the airline continued to sit on its rear, insisting that either the pilots pony up the whole billion or, there was nothing to discuss. Again, despite an obvious need to negotiate, the airline did not do so.
This stance has now put the airline in, as the one lessor said, a "No-Win Stand-Off."
Now Grinstein has those on the debt side refusing to budge until the pilots move. And the pilots' union refuses to make any serious move until the airline "gets more" from its debt holders.
In my opinion Grinstein only has himself to blame for this mess.
And, as to the recent debt exchange offer by the airline, again, if the need to restructure the airline's debt is as urgent as the airline says it is, why isn't the offer more attractive? Why isn't, as more than one lessor has commented, Delta on the phone to them day in and day out, in an attempt to get them to agree to some type of concessionary agreement?
I agree. The public pronouncements by the airline don't seem to match what the airline is actually doing.
As a result, I think it's only a matter of time before we see the airline in Chapter 11 protection -- an inevitable outcome that obviously a few of the airline's vendors have already figured out as well.
 
ohcaptainron said:
Delta Air Lines: More Questions Than Answers
We've seen two major airlines go into bankruptcy over the last two years. Now, we have one of those airlines back into bankruptcy, and the threat of yet another, Delta Air Lines, becoming the third major airline to suffer from a case of Bankruptcy Blues.
But as the situation with Delta continues to decline, and as I find myself receiving more and more feedback emails from both aircraft lessors and vendors of the company, in addition to our usual union sources, I continue to come back to a question I've had for many months.
Is management at the airline really serious about attempting to avoid a bankruptcy filing? Or has management dropped the ball? Or, has management planned for a Chapter 11 filing from the get-go?
Let's backpedal a bit and start with the pilots' union situation.
First, as we reported here last week, the Delta ALPA MEC did agree to make changes in the pilot contract with the airline. These changes were hammered out by both sides on Monday. The general membership of the union will be voting on the proposed changes through Sept. 28.
But contrary to what some media reports have suggested, these changes were changes made for ONE reason. That reason? To make sure the airline can continue to fly, even if hundreds of pilots decide to opt out by retiring early.
This agreement has nothing to do with the bigger issue -- that of major concessions.
So, as of this writing, the Delta pilots continue to be the highest paid pilot group in the U.S. And, in talking to some of our Delta pilot sources this week, it sounds very much like the pilots remain in a "wait and see" mode concerning further debt restructuring.
Mark Streeter, analyst with JP Morgan, concurred with this take in a research note issued Tuesday, saying that "we assume that the pilots want further debt restructuring than what has been announced to date."
Now, let's switch gears and look at what I am hearing from more than one lessor at the airline.
As most of you know, Delta has been attempting to renegotiate terms on some of its debt. The face that the airline is putting on this effort is that it is crucial that this debt be restructured.
But, is this really true? Or is it only true because now management at the airline has backed itself into a corner with the pilots' union? A corner, I might add, that it should not have allowed itself to be backed into in the first place. In other words, it's pretty clear that the pilots' are not going to make the kind of cuts that management says it "has to have" until it sees more debt at the airline restructured.
But whose fault is this?
Talking to more than one Delta debt holder this past week, the feedback I received was heavily "anti-pilot." Not surprising. In addition, in terms of the airline's latest offer to restructure its debt, selected debt holders I was in touch with this past week seem to be lukewarm towards the airline's latest restructuring attempts.
As one lessor put it,
"As you may know, Delta asked its Lessors to a presentation on Sept. 13. This was then followed by a specific restructure proposal on the day after. The formal exchange offer was put out there the same day. I must say it feels like they are running a sham -- little or no urgency in the negotiations and/or efforts to follow-up. Plus, the total amount of the ask exceeds what they said they were looking for from this group. This puts the whole issue of fairness out there. Finally, the advisors have been virtually invisible. Not necessarily a bad thing, but again, where is the "urgency" that [the airline] is projecting in the press?"
Another lessor wrote, "Holly, this is the most screwy thing I've ever been involved with.. Why the hell didn't the airline take the $700 million it could have gotten from the pilots months ago? Now it sounds to me like we have a classic "No-Win Stand-Off" here. And, as far as their initial exchange offer is concerned, we're not biting."
Let's go back to this spring.
In March I wrote here that my pilot sources (and I think they were right on the mark) were telling me the following. One, management at the airline was not negotiating. Rather, management was continuing to "tell" the pilot group that it had to have "x" amount. Then, that amount continued to move upward.
Meanwhile, I don't think there is any question that, at that point in time, almost 8 months ago, the Delta pilots' union would have agreed to cuts totalling at least 20%. Maybe a bit more. Maybe not. But certainly at least that amount.
But what did management do? It did not negotiate.
It refused to go after what was, obviously, money lying on the table in front of them.
Instead, management upped the ante, saying it needed even more money from the pilots. $700 million was not enough. It now needed over $1 billion.
At the same time, management also told the pilot union that it could not provide any justification for the additional cuts, or give the union any additional feedback as to the strategic plan for the airline, as the airline was in the midst of a total internal "review."
In July, the pilots' union put in writing what we had known was the case for months. The union told Delta it was willing to take a 23% cut, or approximately $700 million.
The reluctance on the part of CEO Gerald Grinstein to take the money in March was bad enough. But once again, the airline continued to sit on its rear, insisting that either the pilots pony up the whole billion or, there was nothing to discuss. Again, despite an obvious need to negotiate, the airline did not do so.
This stance has now put the airline in, as the one lessor said, a "No-Win Stand-Off."
Now Grinstein has those on the debt side refusing to budge until the pilots move. And the pilots' union refuses to make any serious move until the airline "gets more" from its debt holders.
In my opinion Grinstein only has himself to blame for this mess.
And, as to the recent debt exchange offer by the airline, again, if the need to restructure the airline's debt is as urgent as the airline says it is, why isn't the offer more attractive? Why isn't, as more than one lessor has commented, Delta on the phone to them day in and day out, in an attempt to get them to agree to some type of concessionary agreement?
I agree. The public pronouncements by the airline don't seem to match what the airline is actually doing.
As a result, I think it's only a matter of time before we see the airline in Chapter 11 protection -- an inevitable outcome that obviously a few of the airline's vendors have already figured out as well.
[post="183178"][/post]​
Management wants 1 million plus in concessions...end of story. I hope the pilots have been saving their $$$
 
OHCaptainRon,
You don't cite where this article comes from but it sounds something like Holly Hegeman (sp?) if for no other reason because I don't think you have debt holders calling you (but then I don't know your capacity).

In a nutshell, yes, I think DL has not done a whole lot of negotiating with pilots or debt holders at this point for one simple reason - because Delta provided very clear expectations of where the company needed to be in terms of costs and the pilots have continually refused to meet the company where it says it needs to be. Never mind that ALPA has never come up with a business plan for Delta and proven that the cuts Delta has asked for are not necessary and demonstrated that what ALPA has been willing to give is enough; by refusing to demonstrate that ALPA's contributions are enough to save the business and not simply a position from which to negotiate from, ALPA has invited Delta to take the company to the verge of bankruptcy because it is only there that everyone gets the point that Delta is serious and will prevail in getting the cuts it wants one way or the other.
Not one stakeholder will fare better in bankruptcy than they do outside of BK and in fact nearly all will fare far worse. Further, given that bankruptcy is a nearly fatal disease for airlines and the two current "patients" in the industry hospital being treated are showing no signs of recovery, everyone should be scared absolutely sh****ss that they will ultimately lose everything and in pretty short order.
Keep in mind that US has been back to its unions 3 times and still does not have a viable business plan, UA is working up the courage to formally start round two with deep cuts and pension termination in the offing, and even AA is having trouble making its business plan. Does it even begin to occur to you and anyone else in the bleachers spectating that the cuts that are required to turn the legacy carriers around are deep and they must be meaningful? Not one legacy carrier has successfully turned itself around while LCCs continue to put away profits. And DALPA has known for three years now that these cuts were coming. I can understand a little greed but they will and should accept 110% of the blame if Delta ends up in bankruptcy. The irony is that the vast majority of line pilots at Delta are willing to give up what is necessary to save the company and give it a future. It is a few near-retirement pilots and ALPA national that do not want to see Delta pay scales drop precipitously; guess what: Delta doesn't give a flip about being the gold standard for the rest of the industry.
Ultimately, I don't believe Delta will end up in bankruptcy unless the pilots allow emotions instead of intelligence make decisions. Emotions and ego will mean DL will end up in bankruptcy and another 7000 pilots will take very huge cuts - the 35% plus productivity being asked now will seem like chump change - and the pension will be gone. Voila! Intelligence will say that DL has the possibility of being saved if every stakeholder including the pilots recognizes the serious of the situation and comes to the table willing to offer deep and meaningful concessions and stop playing games. The same logic essentially applies to the debt holders.
At this point, the pilots hold the card as to WHETHER the company will end up in bankruptcy. Delta management holds the card as to WHEN it will happen if the pilots don't cooperate. I genuinely hope that the pilots will very quickly get this resolved or they will find themselves pensionless and poverty stricken.
 
Let's look at this from another perspective also. Do you think ALPA felt even a tinge of guilt when UA was brought to its knees in 2000 and Delta was forced to follow with UA plus 1 or risk seeing Delta reduced to the same horrible position? Absolutely not and I bet Delta doesn't feel the least bit of guilt that it's in control of the situation now and is going to get whatever it needs from the pilots - and in the process will end up as one of the few legacy carriers that will actually be a long term survivor.
 
Dear Worldtraveler,

First, let me say I respect your unquallified devotion to Delta Airlines and its management. However, despite what you believe, the issues facing Delta Airlines are no different than those facing every other legacy carrier. And just like every other legacy carrier Delta's management has had a difficult time articulating a solution.
Delta's MEC has been well advised not to embrace managements carte blanc requests. The pilots have been willing to negotiate. The Delta pilots contract represents a lever if you will to compel Delta's management to get it right, every Delta pilot that I know believes that large sacrafices will be necessary to transform Delta. But lets face it DAL management has had some credability issues in the past. That is really the point.

The company has every intention of filing within the next 120 days, irregardless of pilot negotiations. Cleary, they are not wanting a negotiated solution with any of the stakeholders as evidenced by their lack of urgency. They also know as does the DAL MEC that if UAL and others are successful in terminating pensions the only way they can get there is BK. While there why not clean up the balance sheet, reduce costs etc. This is the end game.

The industries problems are well known, poor management, very high debt loads(see poor management), fuel prices, and the new realities of cost , revenue and competition..However, blaming the pilots or any other employee group for Delta's woes is like blaming the slaves for the fall of the Roman Empire. Your constant drum beating othewise is frankly getting old.



Good Luck.
 
I'm not beating the pilots for Delta's woes...they are just grossly overpaid relative to the market and they WILL be paid market wages one way or another. And Delta management does fully understand the terminal nature of bankruptcy for airlines and is doing everything possible to stay out of it.

I don't think Delta management has any intention of filing bankruptcy unless the pilots absolutely refuse to give. You'll remember the tension that preceded AA's courthouse steps showdown with its unions a year ago. This is a very similar situation (how quickly we forget) except Delta has really tried NOT to ram its solution down the throat of its employees like AA did. It worked for AA and it will work for Delta.

Yes, I agree the last 10 years of Delta management was a disgrace to an otherwise great company - there was an aweful lot of missed opportunities and getting rick by a select few people. Let's not forget though that the same management group signed on for the United plus 1 contract. So you haven't refuted my basic assumption: if that mgmt group was so bad, why didn't the pilots refuse to accept the massive pay raise Delta gave them three years ago? In reality, your assertion of failed management rings very hollow when employees have to give but is very absent when employees benefit. It simply doesn't work that way, oh selfish one.

In case you haven't figured it out, Delta is negotiating with its union to freeze its pension plans - the next best plan to terminating them in bankruptcy. Delta led the industry, if you will recall, in converting its non-pilot pensions to a cash balance plan. It is out to do the very same thing to its pilot pensions. Quite frankly, the reason the process is taking so long is because DL will accomplish with the pilots what no other airline has done - an out of bankruptcy end of defined pension plans; understandably ALPA needs time to think it through and drag their feet; it's management's job to keep ALPA's feet to the fire.

Do you not think that Delta management is acutely aware that Delta pilots are watching the meltdown over at USAirways and don't mind negotiating against that backdrop? While there are many employees at US who simply won't give based on the principle of the matter, all Delta employee groups are at or above industry averages, particularly the pilots. Any rational pilot at Delta (and I believe most geniunely are) clearly recognizes that their clock will be cleaned in bankruptcy; they will be reduced to market wages outside of bankruptcy. If DL folds, they will never see market wages again because many will have to start over at the bottom. It's really not hard to see why Delta pilots will give what management is asking. That is not pro-management; that is the application of rational logic and I'm not sure why you and so many others have a hard time understanding it.
 
I have to agree with world...when they wanted UA +1, they got it. Why aren't they willing to be that again...UA +1? I can tell you why, UA +1 is less, not more, and the union is failing to see where the company is going. I know for a fact that the business plan has been presented to ALPA. Now that that whine is out the window, why aren't they signing on? I can tell you why, because the union is failing to accept reality. Is the company prepared to file? Absolutely! They need to be. That's a simple function of mgmt's job. Do they want to? HELL NO!

As for quoting Holly Hegeman (sp.?), I don't trust her as far as I can throw her and I don't work out much. She's definitely NOT someone people who have a true understanding of the industry today would consult.
 
I have to agree with world...when they wanted UA +1, they got it. Why aren't they willing to be that again...UA +1? I can tell you why, UA +1 is less, not more, and the union is failing to see where the company is going. I know for a fact that the business plan has been presented to ALPA. Now that that whine is out the window, why aren't they signing on? I can tell you why, because the union is failing to accept reality. Is the company prepared to file? Absolutely! They need to be. That's a simple function of mgmt's job. Do they want to? HELL NO!

flyhigh,

I bet if you polled a representative sample of Delta ALPA members, they would tell you that they wish ALPA had acted sooner on this. I bet many of them would have been willing to give a good chunk of pay in order to help keep the company out of bankruptcy and a possible distress termination (or at least, a substantial consensual reduction) of pension benefits.

Just my humble (yet honest) opinion.
 
Holly is always pro-union, but her takes are quite informed and better than almost every other airline analyst out there.

Just put on your union b/s detectors and she reads fine. I think she has some good points in her take.
 
LaBradford,
your assessment is exactly what I have heard from my DL pilots friends as well - and which gives you an idea of how mad they will be if ALPA screws it up.
 
Nightly Business report-PBS

09/23/04: One On One With Julius Maldutis, President of Aviation Dynamics

JEFF YASTINE: United Airlines today reported it lost $56 million last month due to lower fares and higher fuel costs. Wall Street analysts widened their forecast for financial losses at American Airlines` parent company AMR (NYSE:AMR) today and tomorrow, U.S. Airways may ask a bankruptcy court to force concessions from the carrier`s labor unions. These developments are adding yet more turbulence to an already rocky airline industry and joining me now to discuss these developments is Julius Maldutis, longtime airline analyst and president of the consulting firm Aviation Dynamics. Julius, welcome back to NIGHTLY BUSINESS REPORT.

JULIUS MALDUTIS, PRESIDENT, AVIATION DYNAMICS: Thank you, good evening.

YASTINE: Let`s talk about U.S. Airways for a second. They`re already in bankruptcy. They want to force more wage and benefit concessions from their unions, let`s suppose they get those concessions. Does that really help U.S. Airways in their competitive position?

MALDUTIS: It will only be temporary. I believe that USAir is in deep financial trouble. I think they made a strategic mistake in reducing their hub at Pittsburgh which is going to just multiply their losses. So I think it`s one of the first carriers that`s going to be liquidated by this time next year.

YASTINE: So you say one of the first carriers you`re expecting not just these sorts of bankruptcies where they continue to operate. You`re expecting more liquidations where the assets of the entity are sold off entirely.

MALDUTIS: Absolutely. Just look back at what happened in the early 1990s when three airlines were liquidated, Pan Am, Eastern and Braniff and set the stage for the industry`s recovery.

YASTINE: What are the names that you think are candidates for liquidation? I think I can guess them, if you`re saying U.S. Airways, United is already in bankruptcy and Delta (NYSE:DAL) is threatening bankruptcy.

MALDUTIS: Well, very good question. The critical question is that if Delta joins the other two carriers in bankruptcy, then the remaining three airlines: American, Continental (NYSE:CAL) and Northwest (NASDAQ:NWAC), in order to maintain cost parity, will also have to file bankruptcy and once in bankruptcy, then I think it`s going to be a free-for-all how many of these carriers really come out of financial reorganization and how many get liquidated. I would guess that again, two or possibly three airline will be liquidated by this time next year.

YASTINE: Does that mean then that the discounters, the Jetblues (NASDAQ:JBLU) and Southwest (NYSE:LUV) - they`re the winners and we all just sort of walk away from this or is there any future yet left for these legacy airlines or what`s left after these liquidations go through?

MALDUTIS: What`s left is they`re going to be very competitive, very strong and they will give the low cost airlines -- the Jetblues, Southwest, the AirTrans (NYSE:AAI), the Spirits who today are leading the industry and they are part of the problem in that they are charging very low fares. So if the legacy airlines can reorganize in bankruptcy, then they can make a go of it and compete with the low cost airlines.

YASTINE: What`s going on here with the legacy airlines? It seems like no matter what happens if there is just a minor tick in the economy, all sorts of chaos happens and they wind up in bankruptcy again like we see with U.S. Airways. Is it all about fuel costs and squeezing the unions for yet more wage and benefit concessions?

MALDUTIS: I`d like to say labor is not the problem but labor unfortunately has to be the solution to the problem. The problem is that the low cost airlines today constitute about 30 percent of the industry. They offer rock bottom fares because they have the lowest cost, they have the most productive employees and the legacy of full network carriers have to change and the only way they`re going to change is if either labor assists them or they will end up going into Chapter 11 and the judge will then do it.

YASTINE: Would you be buying the discount airlines here?

MALDUTIS: No, I would not because I believe that when we get additional carriers that go into bankruptcy, they will be able to compete successfully against the low cost companies. I would not own any airline shares today.

YASTINE: All right. Julius, we appreciate your time with the program.

MALDUTIS: Thank you.
 
I totally agree w/ Maldutis. Labor is not the problem but it has to be a part of the solution. The reality is that the legacy carriers have been shaken by forces well beyond their control starting with the growth of the low cost carriers which has reached a point that the legacies have lost all control of their business. Obviously, no one could have predicted 9/11 (within the industry anyway - let's not get into that debate from a political perspective) but it took about 2 hours for the legacy airlines to realize the impact on their businesses. Fuel is actually quite a bit more predictable and has occurred before as has the overtaxation issue.

My beef is not that labor caused the problems that face the airlines, only that they must be part of the solution. Airline employees cannot expect to enjoy the lifestyle they once knew given that there are other service providers that are willing to offer good quality service for much less. That doesn't excuse management from putting together a cohesive, intelligent plan. And it doesn't mean that all current airline employees will be willing to make the transition.

Within that context, I think Delta fares well. It has the luxury of being late in the legacy reorganization timeline and thus can see the failures from other carriers; that luxury comes at the expense of much higher debt which was used to sustain Delta’s higher costs for the past three years. I believe Delta has a coherent plan – one that is really not that much different from UA, US, or AA but which doesn’t require shrinking the airline as the first two are doing and which has never led to a successful airline turnaround; it is the successive growth that turns those companies around, something that AA and DL have incorporated into their turnaround plans. Further, Delta and American’s perspective on this side of bankruptcy gives the company much greater promise than what is enjoyed by UA and US. Delta’s debt after their reorganization will be manageable – but it will require significant payments for many years; on the other hand, Delta has few financial commitments outside of debt for the next several years. Finally, DL has not, so far, made the cost employees are expected to pay to finance the turnaround excessive; even with the cuts which Delta said it wants, Delta employees will be reasonably well paid compared with other airline employees.

If I were a Delta employee, I would take the current hand which has been dealt and thank my management for doing a pretty good job of steering through some very rough waters and developing a plan that will make Delta a viable and profitable long-term survivor.
 
Curious.......United keeps adding routes, so how do you figure they are shrinking? Shedding unprofitable routes is good business sense. Delta has shed Dallas, isn't that shrinking?
 
LiveInAHotel said:
Yes, it is! But we both know that team Kool-Aid doesn't see it that way.
[post="184098"][/post]​
But ATL is being expanded by around 100 flights, Cvg, SLC and SONG also. DAL is repositioning not shrinking. ;)