No agreement

[JFK Fleet Service]

Honestly, is anyone really surprised by the lack of an agreement?

The company has parroted the same lines to all work groups,nothing has changed.The two sides meet in "Marathon Session" and walk away with nothing concrete to show for it.

Union makes proposal, company states nothing has changed at American Airlines (If they even deign to respond) and walk out.

There is a reason these are called negotiations, not "Here's what we're taking".If AA dreams of bankruptcy labor rates and work rules they should have gone that route.

 

[AANOTOK]

The kool-aid must be getting better, cause the sipping has stopped and the gulping has started.
Enjoy, just be sure you have it finished before the turbulence hits.

 

[eolesen]

Is not this topic PRO COMPANY vs. ANTI-COMPANY?

No, it's about the lack of an agreement.

The whole point of negotiations is to find middle ground that both sides can live with.

That means give and take from both sides.

You're of the opinion that the company just wants to *&^% you over. Somehow, I don't think the company sits up all night thinking up ways of taking everything they can away from you, or finding ways to get rid of as many employees as possible. There are definitely a few old-school asshats who think that way, but they're definitely in the minority...

If you want my opinion, being on the defensive all the time where the company is concerned will accomplish nothing aside from getting your blood pressure up to an unhealthy level, or cause you to start lashing out at other aspects of your life.

You don't have to trust them, but you also don't have to believe that everything they say is an outright lie, scam, or threat.

 

[jersey777]

The APFA presents its comprehensive proposal at 6:30pm on the fifth day of a five-day lockdown mediated negotiation session. Management takes the proposal and goes home and says "we'll get back to you" and that's walking out? That's indicative of bad faith bargaining? That makes me laugh out loud.

When you've got nothing, orchestrate a scene like this to try to paint the other side as outrageous.

Reminds me of Lewis Carroll's writings. Maybe the APFA is being paid to promote Tim Burton's latest take on Alice in Wonderland, opening tomorrow?

I see ridiculous behaviour by both sides.

Wonder why the APFA didn't post the proposal or tell the APFA membership what was in it?

I might actually agree with you on one point. The APFA said that the company left 10 hours early and that their last offer was made at 6:30 pm. So are we to believe that negotiations were supposed to go till 4 am the next morning? Maybe they were or maybe there was no set end time like the company's stated "end of the business day". I guess no one at Centrport stays late or works nights like the flight attendants do.

With that said, there is no doubt in my mind that the company left prematurely. How can they pretend to want a signed contract when they don't come prepared to respond to counter proposals? They are stalling for more time. I have news for them, these kind of antics do nothing more then rile up the rank and file flight attendants. As time presses on, anxiety and expectations get raised and then dashed. You will find that more and more "apathetic" flight attendants are going to start to get involved. People that were kind of sitting on the sidelines are starting to speak up. When will the company learn how not to handle negotiations?

 

[FWAAA]

If APFA wanted a response prior to 4:30am Thursday, wonder why they waited until 6:30pm Wednesday to give the company the proposal? Wonder why it could not have been provided on Saturday? Or Sunday? Or Monday? Or Tuesday? Or Wednesday prior to 6:30pm? What a monumental waste of time.

Plenty of ridiculous behaviour by both sides.

 

[jersey777]

Now come on, don't you think that there were several offers going back and forth? Certainly you don't think that the company backed off on some of their concessions on their own? This "super" mediation didn't end because the mediator thought there was no sense to continue. The meeting ending because basically the company got tired and decided to go home.

 

[jimntx]

No, it's about the lack of an agreement.

The whole point of negotiations is to find middle ground that both sides can live with.

That means give and take from both sides.

You're of the opinion that the company just wants to *&^% you over. Somehow, I don't think the company sits up all night thinking up ways of taking everything they can away from you, or finding ways to get rid of as many employees as possible. There are definitely a few old-school asshats who think that way, but they're definitely in the minority...

If you want my opinion, being on the defensive all the time where the company is concerned will accomplish nothing aside from getting your blood pressure up to an unhealthy level, or cause you to start lashing out at other aspects of your life.

You don't have to trust them, but you also don't have to believe that everything they say is an outright lie, scam, or threat.

Really, now? And, you don't think that asking a flight attendant corps that has almost 75% of the active members at top-of-scale to maintain the 2003 concessionary wage rates for another 5 years (i.e., no raises) is not trying to (how did you put it? Oh yeah) "*&^% (us) over?"

Don't give us your condescending little lessons on the meanings of words. We know what the word negotiations means. I'm aware that you feel that flight attendants are not quite bright, but some of us even graduated from high school. Besides, you have hoist yourself upon your own petard.

"The whole point of negotiations is to find middle ground that both sides can live with."

Can you honestly say with a straight face that the company's proposals that we have no raises for 5 more years and accept more draconian work rules is an honest attempt to find "middle ground?" Especially since they seem to get up and walk out every time the union makes a counter proposal? Why do you think the lockdown sessions were ordered by the mediator? Because eveyone was embracing and calling each other thou?

Oh, there have been any number of articles "agreed to" by both sides. Articles that neither side particularly cares about because they neither cost the company anything nor put money in the pocket of a flight attendant. The issues that both sides really care about--money and work rules--are just as far apart as they were in the beginning as near as I can tell. And, as has already been pointed out, the "decided, agreed upon" parts are subject to change until both sides have signed off on the TA. So, in reality, nothing is decided yet.

 

[eolesen]

Jim, I guess there's not much point in trying to have a discussion if all it does is result in you unleashing a bunch of vitrol (which you've done to a few people lately).

Off to go hoist my own petard... 🙄

 

[nbmcg01]

For the sake of discussions, lets look at a few of the contested items:

Lets look at some of the Company proposals:

New employees would not have a defined benefit.
Yes, this is not ideal but is it a deal breaker? If you know from the date of hire that you will be in a match 401K plan vs a defined benefit plan there is no harm, no foul. You make choices based on that decision and current employees keep what they now have..

Increase projected lines to 95.
This comes down to choice and protective language.
There should be a compromise that doesn't go over 85. There should be leg flown protections and stiff penalties for long "sits" or practice layovers.The tradeoff for allowing this would be more f/a control over their schedules. Free up the trading rules. Why should AA care who works a flight as long as it iscovered? No red light, green light, times have to be equal menutia.

Cross utilization
We fought this tooth and nail and it was one of the items unilaterally
implemented during our 1986 strike. When we returned most loved it. Gave everyone a chance to fly Intn. even if it was just a trip here or there. I was former PanAm and hired by TWA to fly Intn (language qualified in several languages) but always flew domestic. It was fun picking up a trip to Athens or London without having to fly it a whole month. We have run the figures upside
and down and it doesn't change the headcount needs significantly. I have never understood why you all don't have to be required to be qualified on ALL equipment and ALL services.

Vacation and sick accrual:
This is where I would really fight against company proposal.

What might be proposed instead is
a combined amount of days which allows a certain amount to be taken for"whatever". We also had the option of opting out of a trip( with pay loss) if the reserves wern't flying and "something" came up. AA tried to turn those into POs when they took over but we won that NOD.

Ex. For the most senior:
30 days vacation
30 days "whatever" There would have to be a maximum conversion of current sick
time and then a set accrual.

No one should have to disclose illness info unless you require going into a STD
code (short term disability). IOD and maternity are certainly the exclusions.

 

[jimntx]

Jim, I guess there's not much point in trying to have a discussion if all it does is result in you unleashing a bunch of vitrol (which you've done to a few people lately).

Off to go hoist my own petard... 🙄

Oh, you don't really want to discuss. You want to lecture all of us flight service mental defectives on how the company is right.

Vitriol? Or, did you just assume that the words you didn't understand must be nasty? I'm not being vitriolic, but just as you accused hopeful of having a binary view of the situation, you seem to have a unitary "the company is always right because the company is always right" view of the situation. Unless, of course, you are bragging about how you "escaped" and your life is a so much better today than working for AMR.

 

[Mach85ER]

From a curious bystander,


Regarding scheduling lines over 90 hours, has anyone seen any proposals regarding maximum hours in a month if reassigned?

 

[FWAAA]

Don't know who is lying, but either it's AA or APFA.

APFA says the proposal was presented at 6:30pm with 10 hours remaining in the negotiating session and that AA negotiators walked out:

http://www.apfa.org/images/press/talks_end...eal_03mar10.pdf

Predictably, AA says that's not true:

An American Airlines spokeswoman said in a statement: "The notion that we walked out is categorically untrue. In fact, American Airlines negotiators remained in Washington, D.C., until this morning. This round of talks was always scheduled to conclude at the end of business Wednesday evening and American Airlines actually agreed to wait to hear the union’s counter-proposal. We agreed to review this version and the mediator recessed the session, after 7 p.m. We will respond to the counter-proposal at our next negotiating session.â€￾

http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/s....html?ana=yfcpc

Somebody's pants are on fire.

 

[DallasConehead]

Don't know who is lying, but either it's AA or APFA.

I know for sure who's lying, if the Companys lips are moving, they are lying. Missy is just doing PR damage control. As I've said before, the company team is a failure.

 

[eolesen]

I'm not being vitriolic, but just as you accused hopeful of having a binary view of the situation, you seem to have a unitary "the company is always right because the company is always right" view of the situation.

Gee, thanks. I guess I should shorten my posts down to just that one sentence...

However, I don't believe the company is always right, Jim. There's lots of examples of that in the archives.

Despite Conehead's predictable response one post above, management is also not always wrong, lying, corrupt, evil, or out to get their way at any cost.

 

[jimntx]

Just gigging you. You know we all love you, E.

Now...

HOLD THE PHONE! Just got an email from a union rep that provides some details of the company's latest offer. Seems that they have moved off of the no raises for the next 5 years stance. Perhaps they got the feeling that the mediator did not believe that was bargaining in good faith. I can't say I like all of it, but since I will be gone one way or another in less than two years, a lot of this will not apply to me.

Article 38: Duration
Company proposes an 8-year contract! The proposed pay increases are evidently contingent upon agreement to this length of contract; so that the company can spread out the cost. What is particularly intriguing is that the company proposal includes...
Establish an amendable round of negotiations commencing six (6) months prior to May 1, 2014
Absent an agreement during the six (6) month negotiation period, each party may submit to binding interest arbitration up to five (5) discrete contract proposals (excluding compensation) on which they have been unable to reach agreement during the amendable round. (Now this is forward thinking by the company, and I applaud it. It basically says that with an 8 year contract things may change more than we think or know, and we are open to renegotiating contract proposals at the end of 4 years. Makes the idea of an 8-year CBA not so scary.)

Article 3: Compensation (Modified from last company offer)
Signing Bonus - 3% previous calendar year earnings (non pensionable)
(DOS = Date of Signing)
DOS + 8 months - 2% structural - applicable to steps 6 through 15 only
DOS + 12 months - 2% structural - applicable to steps 7 through 15 only
DOS + 24 months - 2% structural- applicable to steps 8 through 15 only
DOS + 36 months - 2% lump sum
DOS + 48 months - Industry average increase*
DOS + 60 months - Industry average increase*
DOS + 72 months - Industry average increase*
DOS + 84 months - Industry average increase*
*Industry average increase shall be defined as the average increase year over year in the flight attendant domestic pay rates in each longevity step in the agreements of Delta, Continental, United, US Airways, Air Tran and Southwest (Exactly how this is to be calculated should be looked at carefully. As Mark Twain said, "There are lies. There are damn lies. And, then there are statistics.")

Article 4: Expenses (Modified from last company offer)
(Withdraw) Eliminate TAFB for Turns (as proposed on 7/24/09)
(Modify) Increase Per Diem:
DOS - $1.55 Dom / $1.80 Intl
DOS + 12 months - $1.65 Dom / $1.90 Intl
DOS + 24 months - $1.80 Dom / $2.00 Intl

Article 6: Vacation
A chart I can't reproduce, but it's sort of a sliding scale thing based on hours flown. For instance, if you fly less than 540 hours/year, you accrue zero vacation days. In my "slot" of 5-12 years, 549-730 annual hours gets you 14 days vacation. 740-939 hours earns 15 days vacation. And, 940 or more earns 17 days vacation. (Note that 540 hours/year is an average of 45 hours a month, an increase of 10 hours over current requirement for company-paid benefits. I have no problem with this at all. I'm still in the "if you want to call yourself a flight attendant, you have to fly" school of thought.)

Maximum accrual for 25+years flying 940 or more hours would be 35 days vacation.

Article 7: Hours of Service
DOS - 80:00 Dom / 85:00 Intl
1. (New) 25% of lines can be pure bids built to 85 Dom / 90 Intl
2. Exception: Three (3) India / China sequences per bid line is acceptable
3. (Withdraw) Eliminate Pure Bid Restrictions - The Company will attempt to maintain purity in the lines as operationally feasible
4. (New) Redefine pure bids as: Sequences with the same number of legs (not to exceed 12 International), and home based departures variance no greater than four (4) hours
5. A "No Option" Flight Attendant will not be involuntarily reassigned above schedule max
6. An "Option" Flight Attendant will not be involuntarily reassigned more than five (5) hours above the schedule max
(Note the redefinition of a "pure" line. Sounds fine to me, but I doubt I will live long enough to hold a pure line anyway.)
DOS + 12 months - 85:00 Dom / 87:00 Intl
(New) DOS + 24 months - 89:00 Dom / 89:00 Intl
(New) DOS + 48 - 92:30 Dom / 92:30 Intl
(The bullet points in DOS apply throughout. Also, remember that the maximum hours does not mean a line would be built that high...just that the company could build a line that high if necessary. I know several f/as who would say the higher the better. Then they would not have to work so hard to pick up the extra flying they need to make ends meet. Of course, more hours/line mean less total f/as needed. I might be toast sooner than later, but I think it would be good for most flight attendants.)

Article 9 – Scheduling
(Modify) Combine Domestic / International operations for all Flight Attendants at DOS + 48 at the Company’s discretion (Ok. Get ready for the 2nd coming. The end of the world is nigh.)
(Modify) Withdraw bid line protection (as proposed on 1/20/10)
(New) Create sequence pay protection
Sequence pay protection up to the schedule max (excluding carryover time)
Company offered “Option II” flying will be sequence protected above the schedule max
Must bid or be assigned a trip that originates within days originally scheduled to fly (DOSTF) unless assigned comparable days later in the month
Flight Attendant may bid or be assigned multiple sequences within DOSTF
If protected for turn-around, Flight Attendant may be assigned airport stand-by duty. Stand by assignment must be in open time at time of bidding
Sequence pay protection does not apply to Reserves
Eliminate 9.P.6.
All other Article 9.P. rules will apply


Article 10: Reserve
(Modify) Reduced days of Reserve Availability - percentages determined by the Company
(As someone who will always be on reserve to some extent, I would want this spelled out exactly. Are the percentages to be determined the percentage of days on call or percentage of active flight attendants on reserve for any given month? As stated, it could be either or both.)

The new proposal for Sick Leave was similar to vacation. Minimum 540 hours for accrual, at 540, accrue 3 hours/mo, at 740 hours accrue 3.5 hours/month, at 940 accrue 4 hours/month.

I think we may have enough here that we can reach an agreement with the company and avoid a strike. I'll be honest witcha. I didn't think there would be a new contract before I retired--minimum 12-months hence, maximum 22 months hence.