No agreement

[Birdman]

The way I see it, the job of the union is to protect the craft/profession, and balance that with maintaining compensation/quality of worklife.

GO AMFA? :blink:

 

[TWU informer]

The way I see it, the job of the union is to protect the craft/profession, and balance that with maintaining compensation/quality of worklife. I carried a craft union card (IATSE) before I entered travel 20 years ago.

WOW! The management defender hits the nail on head.

Of course the AA and the TWU invents the B-scale, then the pay lowering SRP program, then mandates upgrading building cleaners, security guards, management staff assistants, and credit union clerks into skilled positions instead of hiring off the street professional dedicated skilled craftsman. In other words the dues collection agency has failed us all at protecting "the craft/profession, and balancing that with maintaining compensation/quality of worklife". The TWU has not only failed us at AA, but also the entire industry has been damaged by their perpetual weakness, and willingness to forego the basic function that "E" brings into the debate. Instead the TWU has advanced both pay lowering and skill/profession degrading ideas into the industry.

It is no secret that I have little faith in our current management within M&E, and the consulting firms running this airline. It is my belief that the experience and skill of the employees is what has floated this airline through tough times. Now AA Management has grown to like the idea of lowering pay and skill levels, by proposing ideas like 50% non-licensed AMT in the overhaul bases, 30% non-licensed AMT on the line, and incredible ideas like outsourcing building cleaner jobs entirely and making those folks Plant Maintenance Men who would be in chrage of maintaining the equipment and facilities used by the AMT's and ground serivce. In my humble opinion once the skill and experience has been eroded at this airline combined with the piss-poor management, AA will find itself much closer to the non-existent status of Eastern, TWA, Pan-AM, and the rest of the eliminated.

AA management and TWU Leadership:

Your skill and experience is all you have left. Already with the previous described erosion, you face tough scrutinty and fines from the FAA. Remove your ignorant proposals from the bargaining table and stop your skill eroding advancement before that last leg holding you in the air breaks and all of us suffer from the complete collapse of a an airline with a great history.

 

[enough already]

Eric, it depends on what side of the layoff you're on.. I would rather take less pay and know someone has been able to keep their job.

That attitude has contributed to our current situation. The compAAny gets to have their cake and eat it by paying us less and at the same time reducing our headcount by attrition.

 

[upsilon]

It seems to me that this thread has gone off in all directions. It started out with a non-descript title on the APFA negotiations and then turned to the usual AA Unionista/MgmtClone poster charges and bickering, before Jim brought us info on the AA proposal on 03/05 to APFA. It can be found here, and for a few posts it was discussed.

But it soon turned to a debate on what should be the role of unions, i.e., jobs vs. pay. While I think the points by Nancy, Eric, Dave and others on that point are quite interesting, I would like to suggest that the Moderators do something to create a thread on the AA proposal to APFA with an appropriate title. It would make following this significant development much easier

 

[TWU informer]

Eric, it depends on what side of the layoff you're on.. I would rather take less pay and know someone has been able to keep their job.

Instead of straight-up B-Scales and SRP/OSM payrates the union should allow two different payscales. Bleeding Hearts willing to subsidize a job with a paycut will be on one payscale, and those that don't go to work to subsidize jobs on another payscale. That way nbmcg01 can take his paycut and fund his someone who needs a job, and the rest of us can protect the pay and benefit scale. Or we can create a "LOVE FUND" like the United Way where these folks can contribute to the bleeding heart fund the jobs program.

Maybe we can even get some legislation passed whereby the contribution would be tax deductible since afterall such an opinion really is charity. Just how much per job are you willing to sacrfice anyway? Is there a limit to your compassion?

The rediculous part about the "fund a job via paycuts" idea equates to keeping more supply (seats) in the air, when the demand for seats obviously is current lower than the supply available. Thus lack of profits.

Some folks to need to go back to basic supply and demand economics of the capitalist system.

Bankruptcy Court Laws, Corporate Welfare, Government Buyouts, and Workers willing to fund jobs with pay cuts and tax increases are in direct conflict with the supply and demand system mandated to maintain a healthy capitalist society. Maybe we should divide the Country into true Socialist and true Capitalist States and allow the seperation to really take place instead mixing the two together that will take us all down.

 

[TWU informer]

It seems to me that this thread has gone off in all directions. It started out with a non-descript title on the APFA negotiations and then turned to the usual AA Unionista/MgmtClone poster charges and bickering, before Jim brought us info on the AA proposal on 03/05 to APFA. It can be found here, and for a few posts it was discussed.

But it soon tuned to a debate on what should be the role of unions, i.e., jobs vs. pay. While I think the points by Nancy, Eric, Dave and others on that point are quite interesting, I would like to suggest that the Moderators do something to create a thread on the AA proposal to APFA with an appropriate title. It would make following this significant development much easier

I think that since ALL workgroups are currently in stalled negotiations that mixing the debate and reading the points of interest and concern of other work groups is beneficial. Afterall at some point we are likely going to be voting and participating in supporting each others work group in a self help situation. Attempting to single up the duscussions at this point is about the same as dividing the union work groups and closing off opinions and feelings. Not really Unionism if you ask me.

 

[upsilon]

Dave, I don't argue that you are all concerned. But I think the discussion of the details of the AA proposal to APFA deserves a thread of its own.

I hope to read what Nancy, Jim, Kirk and the other APFA posters (whose first names haven't been disclosed) think about the proposal. I don't want to have to wade through the constant TWU vs. AA Mx Mgmt diatribe nor the Unionista/MgmtClone posts.

That is why I sought out and posted the link above where you can see all of the AA proposal to APFA that Jim brought to our attention.

 

[AANOTOK]

It's the way most blogs end up. Nothing new!

I, like TWU informer, find the relevance. But, if the boss doesn't, then I'm sure he will remedy it. No biggie. 🙂

 

[mwa]

No one mentioned the baseball style arbitration that is is being proposed.

 

[aamechntx]

I like the idea of being able to bring bats into the next round of negotiations. I bet that those remaining issues regarding compensation would be resolved rather hastily.

 

[L1011Ret]

It seems to me that this thread has gone off in all directions. It started out with a non-descript title on the APFA negotiations and then turned to the usual AA Unionista/MgmtClone poster charges and bickering, before Jim brought us info on the AA proposal on 03/05 to APFA. It can be found here, and for a few posts it was discussed.

But it soon turned to a debate on what should be the role of unions, i.e., jobs vs. pay. While I think the points by Nancy, Eric, Dave and others on that point are quite interesting, I would like to suggest that the Moderators do something to create a thread on the AA proposal to APFA with an appropriate title. It would make following this significant development much easier

Agree 100%, the thread has been hijacked as usual by posters who are using it for other issues. The board continues to deteriorate because of this stuff/

 

[TWU informer]

Dave, I don't argue that you are all concerned. But I think the discussion of the details of the AA proposal to APFA deserves a thread of its own.

I hope to read what Nancy, Jim, Kirk and the other APFA posters (whose first names haven't been disclosed) think about the proposal. I don't want to have to wade through the constant TWU vs. AA Mx Mgmt diatribe nor the Unionista/MgmtClone posts.

That is why I sought out and posted the link above where you can see all of the AA proposal to APFA that Jim brought to our attention.

Not to attack you, but just to make a last point about this issue. Count the number of "I"'s in your post and ask yourself, are these forums about "you" or about "us"?

Back to the matter. Does anyone know when the NMB or the mediator is to make a ruling on the request for impasse release?

 

[nbmcg01]

It seems to me that this thread has gone off in all directions. It started out with a non-descript title on the APFA negotiations and then turned to the usual AA Unionista/MgmtClone poster charges and bickering, before Jim brought us info on the AA proposal on 03/05 to APFA. It can be found here, and for a few posts it was discussed.

But it soon turned to a debate on what should be the role of unions, i.e., jobs vs. pay. While I think the points by Nancy, Eric, Dave and others on that point are quite interesting, I would like to suggest that the Moderators do something to create a thread on the AA proposal to APFA with an appropriate title. It would make following this significant development much easier

Actually, this is one thread that has pretty much stayed on topic. AA proposals, the APFAs counter, no agreement and what can be done to reach an agreement. increased hrs proposed by the Co can affect jobs, and pay is the real sticking point. It is what it is...

 

[eolesen]

Baseball arbitration would be great -- it would force both sides to be a little more reasonable in their last and final offer, since the arbitrator picks one or the other. Past arbitrations *including 1993* and PEB's have resulted in splitting the baby type decisions which force both sides to go to extremes...

Upsilon, the point about whether a union should protect pay vs. jobs goes straight to the comment made about AA seeking to increase the max scheduled to 90+ hours (since it would result in a need for fewer FA's), and the subsequent point about a union being there to protect jobs. That's on topic to me, but I'll concede it's probably appropriate to try and keep this thread a little more focused on the APFA since that's its origin.....

 

[Hatu]

Baseball arbitration would be great -- it would force both sides to be a little more reasonable in their last and final offer, since the arbitrator picks one or the other. Past arbitrations *including 1993* and PEB's have resulted in splitting the baby type decisions which force both sides to go to extremes...

Do you think either side would accept binding arbitration?