It's not just an admission that the TSA doesn't trust the screeners at the checkpoint - it's a recognition that this is just window dressing to appease the nervous nellies of the world - and not real security.
No carryons allowed on flights from/connecting in UK
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It's not just an admission that the TSA doesn't trust the screeners at the checkpoint - it's a recognition that this is just window dressing to appease the nervous nellies of the world - and not real security.
There are actually *many* nervous nellies on this very thread, who want to implement worthless security measures so that THEY can FEEL safe at the expense of genuine safety and constitutional liberties.
I'll borrow a quote from a FlyerTalk post:
"Racial profiling is stupid because it is easily defeated. There is no benefit to racial profiling if you're trying to stop someone from bringing a bomb onto a plane. If everyone knows that you're going to focus your efforts on searching Middle Eastern males, then a terrorist group can and will recruit someone who isn't to bring the bomb on board. Random checks, or checking everyone that comes through, are the two best ways to set up security checkpoints. This has been proven time and time again in repeated studies and in our own experience in the war on drugs. Profiling that we implemented for drug smugglers gave the smugglers an easy way to make it less likely to be stopped, resulting in fewer arrests than a delibrately random pattern of searching.
So constitutional and legal concerns aside, racial profiling is simply ineffective. If you move beyond that and want to profile for Muslims, you have a whole new set of problems: What does a Muslim extremist look like? Even disconting recent converts, in addition to the Arab countries, they could come from major Muslim populations in Pakistan, India, Indonesia, China, "black" Africa (with a lot of physical diversity), "not black" Afica (quite a bit of physical diversity there too) "white" southeastern Europe (you never saw a fair-haired, blue-eyed Bosnian or Turk?). So how do you profile a potential Muslim extremist? Check everyone who could potentially be Muslim? Just to cover the major groups of Muslims in the world, that's everyone who's Middle Eastern or even generically Mediterranean, North African, Black, White, Southeast Asian, Central Asian, East Asian and South Asian. Good luck with that. You either have to search everyone, or risk missing a smartly-recruited paleface terrorist in a business suit because you're busy hassling some Sikh guy."
Recent al-Qaeda and allied attempted and/or executed terror attacks and suicide bombings have been conducted by a variety of racial and ethnic groups (Blacks, Arabs, East Asians, and White people), and both genders (the last aviation suicide bombers were WOMEN!). So I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of demographic profiles the nervous nellies have in mind, as al-Qaeda and its allies have outmoded nearly all of them over the past few years.
In short, the worst way to protect ourselves is to rely on outdated and outmoded stereotypes of the face and nature of the enemy threat. But then again, why have real safety when most will settle for useless cosmetics... :down:
Admittedly, El Al uses access controls and behavioral profiling systems that WORK. None of this mumbo-jumbo about presupposing who is a terrorist or what a terrorist looks like - EVERY person is thoroughly screened and assessed for risk behaviors, as ANY person could be a terrorist or in use by a terrorist.
That said, the 3-4 hour waits for a flight that would become commonplace under such a system would force most ailines into Chapter 11 as flying would become a thing of the past for short-haul (read: higher-yield) trips.
I'll borrow a quote from a FlyerTalk post:
"Racial profiling is stupid because it is easily defeated. There is no benefit to racial profiling if you're trying to stop someone from bringing a bomb onto a plane. If everyone knows that you're going to focus your efforts on searching Middle Eastern males, then a terrorist group can and will recruit someone who isn't to bring the bomb on board. Random checks, or checking everyone that comes through, are the two best ways to set up security checkpoints. This has been proven time and time again in repeated studies and in our own experience in the war on drugs. Profiling that we implemented for drug smugglers gave the smugglers an easy way to make it less likely to be stopped, resulting in fewer arrests than a delibrately random pattern of searching.
So constitutional and legal concerns aside, racial profiling is simply ineffective. If you move beyond that and want to profile for Muslims, you have a whole new set of problems: What does a Muslim extremist look like? Even disconting recent converts, in addition to the Arab countries, they could come from major Muslim populations in Pakistan, India, Indonesia, China, "black" Africa (with a lot of physical diversity), "not black" Afica (quite a bit of physical diversity there too) "white" southeastern Europe (you never saw a fair-haired, blue-eyed Bosnian or Turk?). So how do you profile a potential Muslim extremist? Check everyone who could potentially be Muslim? Just to cover the major groups of Muslims in the world, that's everyone who's Middle Eastern or even generically Mediterranean, North African, Black, White, Southeast Asian, Central Asian, East Asian and South Asian. Good luck with that. You either have to search everyone, or risk missing a smartly-recruited paleface terrorist in a business suit because you're busy hassling some Sikh guy."
Recent al-Qaeda and allied attempted and/or executed terror attacks and suicide bombings have been conducted by a variety of racial and ethnic groups (Blacks, Arabs, East Asians, and White people), and both genders (the last aviation suicide bombers were WOMEN!). So I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of demographic profiles the nervous nellies have in mind, as al-Qaeda and its allies have outmoded nearly all of them over the past few years.
In short, the worst way to protect ourselves is to rely on outdated and outmoded stereotypes of the face and nature of the enemy threat. But then again, why have real safety when most will settle for useless cosmetics... :down:
Admittedly, El Al uses access controls and behavioral profiling systems that WORK. None of this mumbo-jumbo about presupposing who is a terrorist or what a terrorist looks like - EVERY person is thoroughly screened and assessed for risk behaviors, as ANY person could be a terrorist or in use by a terrorist.
That said, the 3-4 hour waits for a flight that would become commonplace under such a system would force most ailines into Chapter 11 as flying would become a thing of the past for short-haul (read: higher-yield) trips.
Hopeful
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Remember one thing!!!!!!!!!!!
ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE THE ACLU HAMPERING THEIR SECURITY EFFORTS!
Except.....it's been reported the bottles had false bottoms, hence drinking from it would prove nothing.
Your point?
The assertion that racial or ethnic profiling is an answer has been soundly defeated by history, current facts, reason, and a basic love for freedom and liberty. If it would work, a case could be made - but as mentioned earlier, al-Qaeda and Co. have long since moved on from using any single demographic profile, so implementing one now would be fighting the last war, which America is doing too much at the moment (recall airline pilots b*tching left and right for guns while giving scant attention to the far greater likelihood of aircraft bombings a couple years back).
And if you think Uncle Sam has put forth a decent security effort - even in the areas where there is no obvious constitutional issues (e.g., the mostly unscreened stuff flown on flights every day as CARGO) - then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
The solution to mindlessness ain't more mindlessness...
From the BBC:
Abdul Waheed, 21, was arrested at a house in Hepplewhite Close, High Wycombe.
He had changed his name from Don Stewart-Whyte about six months previously, according to neighbours.
mga707,
Your first day on the job as Homeland Security Chief resulted in 5 planes lost from explosives smuggled onboard by 3 clueless white converts and 2 caucasian Chechens.
If your going to profile, it needs to be done right. It takes brains, none of which is in abundant supply at the typical checkpoint.
NewHampshire Black Bears
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Addressed to avek00 and Hopeful .
You Are Both Right !! (but perhaps you BOTH don't know it)
NO racial or ethnic profiling !!!
With EL AL, EVERYONE is a possible terrorist, until proven not to be !!!
The ACLU, BE DAM*ED.(This, coming from a liberal)(ME) !!
KNOW EXACTLY, EVERYTHING that comes in contact with that A/C. workers, pax's, cargo, catering etc, etc, etc !!
For AA, continue to keep pulling away from most DOMESTIC, and more International (like CRANDALL "touted" YEARS ago)
Hopeful, you and I spent enough time at AA, to know that AA is capable of doing things "FIRST", in the US Industry.
(like Sabre, frequent flyer etc, etc.)
We ARE DEFINITELY at the point NOW, of doing are OWN(AA) security !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If other carriers want to follow suit, well all the better !!
TRUE, Israeli type security could very well send some carriers into ch-7.(So could'nt a lot of other things)
We've had 9/11, Richard Reid, and ALMOST this recent thing!............."H E L L O " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I could see the "NEW" TV commercial now. Arpey standing next to the EL AL chief of security, uttering words like;
"When you need to know, EVEN MORE, you seek out the BEST" !!!!
Jesus, I could see the load factors go from the 80's , to the HIGH 90's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THINK ABOUT IT !!
NH/BB's
You Are Both Right !! (but perhaps you BOTH don't know it)
NO racial or ethnic profiling !!!
With EL AL, EVERYONE is a possible terrorist, until proven not to be !!!
The ACLU, BE DAM*ED.(This, coming from a liberal)(ME) !!
KNOW EXACTLY, EVERYTHING that comes in contact with that A/C. workers, pax's, cargo, catering etc, etc, etc !!
For AA, continue to keep pulling away from most DOMESTIC, and more International (like CRANDALL "touted" YEARS ago)
Hopeful, you and I spent enough time at AA, to know that AA is capable of doing things "FIRST", in the US Industry.
(like Sabre, frequent flyer etc, etc.)
We ARE DEFINITELY at the point NOW, of doing are OWN(AA) security !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If other carriers want to follow suit, well all the better !!
TRUE, Israeli type security could very well send some carriers into ch-7.(So could'nt a lot of other things)
We've had 9/11, Richard Reid, and ALMOST this recent thing!............."H E L L O " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I could see the "NEW" TV commercial now. Arpey standing next to the EL AL chief of security, uttering words like;
"When you need to know, EVEN MORE, you seek out the BEST" !!!!
Jesus, I could see the load factors go from the 80's , to the HIGH 90's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THINK ABOUT IT !!
NH/BB's
Hopeful
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I was not referring to racial profiling
My point is that the ACLU doesn't even want random bag searched on the subways. They would even protest a blond hair blue eyed passenger getting a cavity search..
I say check everyone regardless of race religion and creed....
But keep in the back of your mind who attacked us on 9/11 and who were plotting to bring down these aircraft in this recent attempt.
TECHNOLOGY IS NOT A SILVER BULLET AGAINST TERRORISM!
Are you serious? If AA annoyed its customers with additional security screening/interviews/etc. in addition to the TSA hassling, AA would be out of business in no time.
Get real!
What you all are overlooking, ignoring, is that El Al checks everyone. They are also the only (safe to Israel) air carrier, so they don't have to worry about, loosing business.
Now if the TSA would institute a truly random search system, apply it to all passengers, including all those "BBJ/G 1 thru 6", cargo loads and freight airlines, etc, then one could relax and say that the system is fair and effective.
At present the TSA picks on those who will give them the least trouble, airline employees. Been there and almost missed my flight.
Here's the problem at DFW. All employees working at the terminals are going thru security and having to throw away their water,sunscreen,canned soup,etc..While all the overnight contract workers,fuelers,skychefs,cargo mail employees go thru no security and don't have to throw anything away, yet they have the exact same access to the planes as does everybody else. Keep a sharp eye out, cause this is fixing to hit the local DFW area media big time
NewHampshire Black Bears
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How would you have responded to the threat if you were in charge?
I don't really understand why some people are having a problem with erring on the side of caution.
You have a threat to blow up airliners over the atlantic using explosive liquids and an electronic device. So you just let all liquids and electronics on and hope today isn't the day they strike?
What do you think would be a reasonable policy?
No reply with any substance to my post? Do you really think AA would stay in business with such an asinine business plan? Or are you just shooting from the hip? I'm guessing the latter.
Who exactly is in charge? AA said it has no control over the TSA, and if they want to harrass employees they can..Yet AA has no concerns about the hundreds of foreigners roaming the DFW ramp all night long, none of which went thru any screening, some don't even have AOA badges, never had a 10yr background check because they haven't lived in the USA for very long. Why isn't AA worried about this?? My reply from managment was it will screw up the operation, and we cant have that.
