NW Flight Cancellations

[robbedagain]

with the pilots being so tired it is amazing that they still didnt crash but now what would happen if the FAA finds out about the pilot being fatigued? what happens then

 

[finman]

with the pilots being so tired it is amazing that they still didnt crash but now what would happen if the FAA finds out about the pilot being fatigued? what happens then

Since none of the pilots are violating FAA rules on rest requirements or flight times, I doubt the FAA will care. The whole fatigue whining and crying is just a ploy to get NWA back to the table and open up the contract.

So the "NWA Statement Regarding Flight Cancellations" posted earlier by Kev is what?

Please explain why NWA would tarnish their sterling reputation by publishing such obvious falsehoods when the blame for this entire episode should be laid squarely at the pilots feet.

Read the papers today. It's not that complicated. There was weather early in the month that chewed up a lot of reserves. That is normal for June, and there was contingency in the staffing plan for normal weather disruptions. NWA blamed the weather at first, as is customary in these situations, so as not to point a finger at their own employees in haste.

The weather explanation wasn't wrong, per se, as perfect weather may have offset the pilot sick-out and left us with enough pilots in the end. But, as you'll see in more recent articles, once upper mgmt was made aware of the obvious pilot work action, the PR folks were allowed to state the facts that the sick-out was the root cause of the cancellations. Hopefully, ALPA gets sued for an illegal work action after it's all said and done, as was suggested by another poster.

 

[tech2101]

Historical norm Sick % (2004 - 2006) - 9.5%
Jun06 Sick pay percent of total pay - 9.8%
June07 Sick pay percent of total pay - 15.6%

Historical norm of posts during non-working weekend times from Finman - 0

Posts by Finman during his NWA working hours M-F 0700-1600 -

Group: Registered Member
Posts: 495



Sorry Finny, had to give you a little shot.

 

[PhxMama]

All this free time to post maybe he should train to be a pilot! Im sure they could use his help!

 

[nwa400]

All this free time to post maybe he should train to be a pilot! Im sure they could use his help!

PhxMama, you would not want this job.
finman, you sound like an idiot and everyone on this board is laughing at you. You talk as though you have been on a 5 day trip with a dc-9 crew under current nwa contract. No this is not SWA and they have a much different contract. The management actually cares about the pilots and compensates them for the hard work. They accomplish more flying by having better productivity. Not a pilots fault. You say that nwa pilots are %$#@**s. Well, I DARE you to go fly a 5 day trip with 5 or 6 legs a day 14 hour duty days 9h15min layovers and deal with current non contract employees and maint. items not being done right and having to catch their mistakes. With the BEST mechanics that NWA ever saw now all fired....the pilots now must check their six every flight. Weather, new employees, crappy hotels, NO FOOD and no time to even get food, 9hr.15min lay overs with 45 minute drive to the hotel both ways. Excuse me but it is not 14-15 days a month you idiot! IT is more like 18-21 and kids wondering why their daddy is not home anymore. If I were a cursing man....I would say that you are a turd! But that is too good for you. I hope I never meet you on the flight deck. Please introduce yourself to all crews and tell them that they are lazy and no good and the problem. YOu are the pussy because you will not do it! Walk a mile in our shoes you self absorbed piece of crap!
Ok, now I am mad!

 

[ExAF]

OK then, a concerted increase in sick usage intended to cause NWA harm and send a message (if sick-out isn't the term you wish to use)

If flying 85 hours per month (14-15 days flying per month) causes such fatigue and stress that pilots are becoming ill, then yes, they are pussies. I've worked 70 hour weeks for months on end, both in a physically intensive positions and mentally intensive positions, and it has never made me sick. It certainly wouldn't have instantly made me sick when my employer needed me the most to do my job.

As I said, the month of June was staffed fully based on normal sick usage trending. The work action (sick usage spike) caused the staffing shortage; nothing else.

Is it harder to sleep in Fargo than other places? I'd think they'd get more sleep there, since they aren't out chasing hussies.

I'll bet that 70 hours in the cubicle is just a killer. I'm sure it still fit a comfortable routine though. Yes it is harder to sleep in Fargo or anywhere else when it is in a hotel outside of your normal routine. Those long layovers are so they can have you switch your circadian rythm from flying until midnight and then starting the following day (after 24 hours) to a 0600 departure and a 12:49 duty day with 5 legs and 3 plane changes. If it were only that easy. I'll match the mental strain of flying (even in good weather) againt pushing paper and crunching numbers in the cubicle any day. I guess you are just a big old stud since you never got sick. FYI try 17-18 days on the road not 14-15 (most of us aren't whale drivers). If you work more days a month isn't it statstically probable that if you get sick, you have a higher probablility of getting sick on a work day than if you were working fewer days? Just trying to put it in terms of number crunching for you. You can pick and choose the things you want to challenge all you want, but it is a combination of the all of the thing that were listed in previous posts. Not just sick calls. Just for the record, I still have 3 sets of perfect attendance passes I still haven't used so don't assume all pilots call in sick just to make a point or take some time off. December is going to be real interesting when pilots start hitting their 1000 hour FAA yearly limit about the middle of the month. Start planning for that now finney.

 

[Kev3188]

but it is a combination of the all of the thing that were listed in previous posts. Not just sick calls.

Amen.

The last several posts of Finman vs. the world speak to a greater fundamental problem at NW. Mgmt/labor relations are just as worse as ever, and management always looks for the "easy" solution of blaming the work groups for whatever the crisis du jour is. As I mentioned earlier, sometimes things really are what they seem.

I have no doubt that Fin and the rest of the non-contract folks truly believe this is a concerted action, just as all of us ardently believe it isn't. Until that eristic behavior is corrected, all the "feel good" programs in the world won't pull this place out of it's flat spin.

Just for the record, I still have 3 sets of perfect attendance passes I still haven't used

Same here, but what good are they? The planes that are running are packed to the gills. I don't think I've non-revved in 3 or 4 years.

December is going to be real interesting when pilots start hitting their 1000 hour FAA yearly limit about the middle of the month. Start planning for that now finney.

I brought this up to my manager today. His response was, "what do you mean?" At first Ithought he was winding me up, but he honestly had no idea that this was a real possibility

 

[tech2101]

December is going to be real interesting when pilots start hitting their 1000 hour FAA yearly limit about the middle of the month. Start planning for that now finney.

I brought this up to my manager today. His response was, "what do you mean?" At first Ithought he was winding me up, but he honestly had no idea that this was a real possibility

Here's your sign. :blink:

 

[Kev3188]

One of about 6 bazillion articles on the net about this.

Interesting quotes (bold print is my own doing):

From an analyst: Mike Miller, an aviation analyst with The Velocity Group consulting firm, said competition in the industry, especially for lucrative business and international flights, means Northwest cannot afford to wait to resolve the situation.
"Northwest is not a startup airline," Miller said. "They need to be handling this before it gets to be part of their reputation.
"If they were a startup, people may give them enough leeway. But this is pretty basic stuff, staffing enough people to run an airline."

From a member of the flying public: "I will be avoiding them like the plague, at least until they get the maintenance and the pilots stuff straightened out," Wilde said.

 

[tech2101]

One of about 6 bazillion articles on the net about this.

Interesting quotes (bold print is my own doing):

From an analyst: Mike Miller, an aviation analyst with The Velocity Group consulting firm, said competition in the industry, especially for lucrative business and international flights, means Northwest cannot afford to wait to resolve the situation.
"Northwest is not a startup airline," Miller said. "They need to be handling this before it gets to be part of their reputation.
"If they were a startup, people may give them enough leeway. But this is pretty basic stuff, staffing enough people to run an airline."

From a member of the flying public: "I will be avoiding them like the plague, at least until they get the maintenance and the pilots stuff straightened out," Wilde said.

Oh god, there goes your profit sharing check!

Hey Kev. Save that mug. It may be worth something someday at an airline artifact convention. It may be up their with the EAL, PanAm, TWA....

 

[Kev3188]

Oh god, there goes your profit sharing check!

Hey Kev. Save that mug. It may be worth something someday at an airline artifact convention. It may be up their with the EAL, PanAm, TWA....

Mine's no longer in "mint" condition, due to a sticker on it that says, "company Kool-Aid only."

Nevertheless, if we go the way of some of those carriers, I should be able to use it to tide me over until I land on my feet. After all, it's worth roughly 20K.

By the way, I checked Ebay, but haven't seen any on there... yet... B)

 

[whaledriver]

So the fact that pilots are calling in sick about 60% more than the recent historical norm has nothing to do with this? There wouldn't be a need to have pilots fly high time if there wasn't all of the extra sick calls in the first place. This is a concerted effort here. You can't tell me that these pilots are such whiny wimps that they can't handle flying 80-90 hours in a month. Southwest pilots have been doing it for years. Are Southwest pilots just tougher and harder workers than NWA pilots?

ALPA doesn't like the current work rules, and this is the only way they can create a shortage and thus cause cancellations. Did ALPA send out a memo with who should call in sick and when? Of course not, but the numbers don't lie. When on average every pilot is calling in sick for 1 out of every 5 trips, it is sick abuse/sabotoge. I don't buy that all of a sudden our entire pilot workforce is sick 60% more than they used to be.

As such, this has nothing to do with staffing; unless you propose that NWA overstaff the airline by 300-400 pilots just in case the pilots decide to do a sick-out. It's very unfortunate that NWA caved in during contract negotiations when it came to putting teeth into the sick language. Getting sick paid at 75% for all sick calls, like a lot of other employees in the company now work under, would have gone a long way to preventing this type of work action. Pilots get 100% pay on sick calls, so there is not financial disincentive for them to call in sick during work actions like this.

Fin,

You are delusional regarding NWA-ALPA isssues. Wrong regarding the sick calls. It's 100% first sick call only and 75% for all remaining just like every one else. The 80-90 hrs per month like SWA would work if the company had a productive schedule. For example, having a crew sit in LAN for 32 hrs is a problem. It seems insane to have a crew sit on a long layover (32 hrs) and cnx hundreds of flights. NWA need to learn how to work a productive schedule with it's flight crews. Less hotel time - more hard flying...that is the goal of NWA-ALPA.

 

[jenny@nw]

Fin,

You are delusional regarding NWA-ALPA isssues. Wrong regarding the sick calls. It's 100% first sick call only and 75% for all remaining just like every one else. The 80-90 hrs per month like SWA would work if the company had a productive schedule. For example, having a crew sit in LAN for 32 hrs is a problem. It seems insane to have a crew sit on a long layover (32 hrs) and cnx hundreds of flights. NWA need to learn how to work a productive schedule with it's flight crews. Less hotel time - more hard flying...that is the goal of NWA-ALPA.

I'll bet that 70 hours in the cubicle is just a killer. I'm sure it still fit a comfortable routine though. Yes it is harder to sleep in Fargo or anywhere else when it is in a hotel outside of your normal routine. Those long layovers are so they can have you switch your circadian rythm from flying until midnight and then starting the following day (after 24 hours) to a 0600 departure and a 12:49 duty day with 5 legs and 3 plane changes. If it were only that easy. I'll match the mental strain of flying (even in good weather) againt pushing paper and crunching numbers in the cubicle any day. I guess you are just a big old stud since you never got sick. FYI try 17-18 days on the road not 14-15 (most of us aren't whale drivers). If you work more days a month isn't it statstically probable that if you get sick, you have a higher probablility of getting sick on a work day than if you were working fewer days? Just trying to put it in terms of number crunching for you. You can pick and choose the things you want to challenge all you want, but it is a combination of the all of the thing that were listed in previous posts. Not just sick calls. Just for the record, I still have 3 sets of perfect attendance passes I still haven't used so don't assume all pilots call in sick just to make a point or take some time off. December is going to be real interesting when pilots start hitting their 1000 hour FAA yearly limit about the middle of the month. Start planning for that now finney.

finman, you sound like an idiot and everyone on this board is laughing at you. You talk as though you have been on a 5 day trip with a dc-9 crew under current nwa contract. No this is not SWA and they have a much different contract. The management actually cares about the pilots and compensates them for the hard work. They accomplish more flying by having better productivity. Not a pilots fault. You say that nwa pilots are %$#@**s. Well, I DARE you to go fly a 5 day trip with 5 or 6 legs a day 14 hour duty days 9h15min layovers and deal with current non contract employees and maint. items not being done right and having to catch their mistakes. With the BEST mechanics that NWA ever saw now all fired....the pilots now must check their six every flight. Weather, new employees, crappy hotels, NO FOOD and no time to even get food, 9hr.15min lay overs with 45 minute drive to the hotel both ways. Excuse me but it is not 14-15 days a month you idiot! IT is more like 18-21 and kids wondering why their daddy is not home anymore. If I were a cursing man....I would say that you are a turd! But that is too good for you. I hope I never meet you on the flight deck. Please introduce yourself to all crews and tell them that they are lazy and no good and the problem. YOu are the pussy because you will not do it! Walk a mile in our shoes you self absorbed piece of crap!
Ok, now I am mad!

PHEW! Don't HOLD BACK!!!

Historical norm of posts during non-working weekend times from Finman - 0

Posts by Finman during his NWA working hours M-F 0700-1600 -

Oh wait a minute... didn't he have something to do with negotiations or schedueling? Or am I thinking of someone else.

Could he be one of those who sit around surfing the net to do damage control in BLDG A? :huh: Good Job!

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

One flight they even mentioned that it was amazing they didn't crash- because they were really tired. :down: :down: :down:

... and this one time, at band camp ....
You're such a drama queeen!

 

[Kev3188]

Fin,

You are delusional regarding NWA-ALPA isssues. Wrong regarding the sick calls. It's 100% first sick call only and 75% for all remaining just like every one else. The 80-90 hrs per month like SWA would work if the company had a productive schedule. For example, having a crew sit in LAN for 32 hrs is a problem. It seems insane to have a crew sit on a long layover (32 hrs) and cnx hundreds of flights. NWA need to learn how to work a productive schedule with it's flight crews. Less hotel time - more hard flying...that is the goal of NWA-ALPA.

This seems like a win-win for both sides...Pilots have a higher QOL, and the company gets the productivity it needs/wants.

Besides the "actual" negotiating of the language, what's stopping this from occuring?

I would think that rolling the hubs would also go a long way in accomplishing this (while also increasing the efficiency of ground crews), but maybe I'm way off????