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OH vs LM in BK

Do you think AA will file for bankruptcy?

  • YES

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • NO

    Votes: 13 44.8%

  • Total voters
    29

Hopeful

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I know this might appear i am flame baiting, but I would like to know people's opinions regarding a bankruptcy filing by AA. Will AA file?
As far as maintenance goes, if contracts are abbrogated and re-written,,,,,,do you think OH would be spun off or line maintenance simply be contracted out?
 
Instead of starting another thread of idle speculation on what will or not be done if and when an event occurs that has not happened and may not happen, you should go entertain yourself by reading the U.S. Pilots Discussion thread that is now running to 1580 pages of nothing but "you eat boogers. No, you do." :lol: (The thread would be much, much longer, but the former moderator used to start a new thread each week (and close the previous week's thread) to keep the thread size manageable.)
 
Instead of starting another thread of idle speculation on what will or not be done if and when an event occurs that has not happened and may not happen, you should go entertain yourself by reading the U.S. Pilots Discussion thread that is now running to 1580 pages of nothing but "you eat boogers. No, you do." :lol: (The thread would be much, much longer, but the former moderator used to start a new thread each week (and close the previous week's thread) to keep the thread size manageable.)

It's a poll...All one has to do is pick a choice...

Isn't this entire forum about SPECULATION? OPINIONS? FEELINGS?
 
Why American dosn't tout it's maintenance and eats boogers

http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/04/12/2995825/why-american-airlines-doesnt-tout.html

Poll is messed up, I voted NO to BK and chose not to vote for spinnoff but had to choose one for question one to count. This is like the TA ballot :lol:
 
I don't vote in the various polls since I'm not employed by AMR or any of its subs but IMO, AA will only file for Ch 11 in the unlikely event that there's a work stoppage initiated by one of its represented workgroups. As long as the negotiations continue and the unions are not released by the NMB, AA can muddle along as is. WT will probably stop by to repeat how AMR is doomed because of its high costs compared to DL and UA, but the reality is that AA probably won't run low on cash for quite a while as long as the flights aren't grounded because of a strike.

At 3/31/11, AMR was sitting on more than $6.2 billion of total cash and thus far in 2011, the company has been able to borrow and refinance its debt due during 2011. AA has financing lined up for all 2011 738 deliveries and AA has some effective fuel hedging in place. None of the typical triggers for a Ch 11 filing are yet in place. UAL had to file because it had billions of pension underfunding catch-up payments all due at once and did not have the cash. Same at US. Delta and NW both had huge pension contributions due and other debts due and both were running low on cash compared to AA's current position.
 
I don't vote in the various polls since I'm not employed by AMR or any of its subs but IMO, AA will only file for Ch 11 in the unlikely event that there's a work stoppage initiated by one of its represented workgroups. As long as the negotiations continue and the unions are not released by the NMB, AA can muddle along as is. WT will probably stop by to repeat how AMR is doomed because of its high costs compared to DL and UA, but the reality is that AA probably won't run low on cash for quite a while as long as the flights aren't grounded because of a strike.

At 3/31/11, AMR was sitting on more than $6.2 billion of total cash and thus far in 2011, the company has been able to borrow and refinance its debt due during 2011. AA has financing lined up for all 2011 738 deliveries and AA has some effective fuel hedging in place. None of the typical triggers for a Ch 11 filing are yet in place. UAL had to file because it had billions of pension underfunding catch-up payments all due at once and did not have the cash. Same at US. Delta and NW both had huge pension contributions due and other debts due and both were running low on cash compared to AA's current position.
No, WT is NOT going to come along and say that AA is doomed and has no choice but file. AA/AMR will file when it is financially forced to do so and not a day before.
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The 6.2B in cash includes restricted cash which is not available for general corporate use including to pay down debt.
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AMR has refinanced SOME but not all of its 2011 debt unless you have material non-public information inwhich case I would suggest you not post it on the internet.
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Yes, airplanes generally can be financed for the purchase price but that is not always a given because market prices continually change and a decrease in demand could force AA to reevaluate the value of the collateral it has already pledged before it can take on more debt; it's no different than if you applied for a home equity line of credit. They won't reappraise your house as long as you live in it and don't try to take on more debt. If you intend to sell it and need to know what you can get out of the house (and payoff a mortgage) or if you take on more debt they are going to look at the value of the assets underlying your existing debt. It is very possible that the debt you want might be limited because the collateral you have no longer covers your existing debt - including if your credit rating declines. Airplane purchases are still debt and Wall Street won't allow you to continue to take on debt if your overall finances cannot support it.
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And the primary reason why the current fuel crisis (Arpey's words) are troubling is because demand will drop as prices rise - and they have to rise to cover the cost of fuel. AA IS the highest cost producer which means it is more susceptible to discounting below normal market prices based on the price of oil at that time which WILL occur in off peak periods. It is obvious that competitors are already targeting AA markets and that will only increase as AA's ability to defend its network continues to diminish.
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Even if fuel prices drop dramatically back and AA's hedges are sufficient (and no US airline that I know of is more than 50% hedged because the risk is too great to do so, meaning alot of fuel price increases WILL hit the bottom line), AA still has to stop its string of losses and become in a position to defend its markets and grow. \
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I agree that SOME Of AA's labor leaders may be getting the message that their expectations for snapbacks to pre-2003 levels are no longer realistic, esp. unless significant productivity improvements are made. But many AA employees and their labor representatives DON'T get that yet and until that realization is reached, AA cannot move forward as a company. As long as it remains it a state of partial paralysis, competitors will continue to attack AA's key markets which is part of why AA's revenue performance has trailed other carriers.
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It is ENTIRELY possible that AA will slide through this oil crisis just like it has others... but at some point, SOON, AA has got to deal with its structural problems which include labor costs or can it have any hope of returning to the position of leadersihp it once had.

BTW, I didn't and won't vote in this poll not because I don't work for AA but because I don't have enough information to know w/ any certainty what AA will do if it has to make enough tougher choices.
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I absolutely agree that there is little value in continuing to write thousands of pages of "my boogers are better than yours" or "I can shoot mine further than yours."
 
I vote BK will happen once Bob Owens take us all out on Strike trying to save the profession.
 
No, WT is NOT going to come along and say that AA is doomed and has no choice but file. AA/AMR will file when it is financially forced to do so and not a day before.
.
The 6.2B in cash includes restricted cash which is not available for general corporate use including to pay down debt.
.
AMR has refinanced SOME but not all of its 2011 debt unless you have material non-public information inwhich case I would suggest you not post it on the internet.
.
Yes, airplanes generally can be financed for the purchase price but that is not always a given because market prices continually change and a decrease in demand could force AA to reevaluate the value of the collateral it has already pledged before it can take on more debt; it's no different than if you applied for a home equity line of credit. They won't reappraise your house as long as you live in it and don't try to take on more debt. If you intend to sell it and need to know what you can get out of the house (and payoff a mortgage) or if you take on more debt they are going to look at the value of the assets underlying your existing debt. It is very possible that the debt you want might be limited because the collateral you have no longer covers your existing debt - including if your credit rating declines. Airplane purchases are still debt and Wall Street won't allow you to continue to take on debt if your overall finances cannot support it.
.
And the primary reason why the current fuel crisis (Arpey's words) are troubling is because demand will drop as prices rise - and they have to rise to cover the cost of fuel. AA IS the highest cost producer which means it is more susceptible to discounting below normal market prices based on the price of oil at that time which WILL occur in off peak periods. It is obvious that competitors are already targeting AA markets and that will only increase as AA's ability to defend its network continues to diminish.
.
Even if fuel prices drop dramatically back and AA's hedges are sufficient (and no US airline that I know of is more than 50% hedged because the risk is too great to do so, meaning alot of fuel price increases WILL hit the bottom line), AA still has to stop its string of losses and become in a position to defend its markets and grow. \
.
I agree that SOME Of AA's labor leaders may be getting the message that their expectations for snapbacks to pre-2003 levels are no longer realistic, esp. unless significant productivity improvements are made. But many AA employees and their labor representatives DON'T get that yet and until that realization is reached, AA cannot move forward as a company. As long as it remains it a state of partial paralysis, competitors will continue to attack AA's key markets which is part of why AA's revenue performance has trailed other carriers.
.
It is ENTIRELY possible that AA will slide through this oil crisis just like it has others... but at some point, SOON, AA has got to deal with its structural problems which include labor costs or can it have any hope of returning to the position of leadersihp it once had.

BTW, I didn't and won't vote in this poll not because I don't work for AA but because I don't have enough information to know w/ any certainty what AA will do if it has to make enough tougher choices.
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I absolutely agree that there is little value in continuing to write thousands of pages of "my boogers are better than yours" or "I can shoot mine further than yours."
Just a side note....I compare how AA finance's and refinances it's debt to someone buying a home and refinances the home before it's built. Can't sustain operations by continually financing every piece of asset on the field. As an employee, I would be extremely nervous when corporations hoard their cash and pile on debt to the hilt, and then tell the workers that we're the problem. What I find amusing about AA management is that they will purposely sabotage their operation to bamboozle the workers instead of improving their product.
 
The problem is you do not have Airline people running this company.
AA will push the doom and gloom button for a long time to come.
Three unionized work groups in negotiations that are going nowhere.
Fuel prices on the rise and no end in sight.
The bonuses keep coming and we the workers suffer for it.
Yet the Airplanes are still flying day in and day out.
If AA files for BK how much more will we give up?
Are we asking for the winning lotto ticket or just trying to improve our lives?
May 2003 was a long time ago.
How more efficient has this airline been operating since?
Newer efficient aircraft have been added since 2003.
Less employees doing more since 2003.
Growing alliances with other carriers worldwide.
AA needs its employees to continue to be functional.
We are not the problem. Care to guess who is?
This company needs NEW leadership and I am not referring to the BK court appointed ones.
It is obvious AA management wants more from us and negotiations just wont do it for them.
So the BK avenue might but with consequences for all.
This is a risk AA might not want to try. More like a bluff.
 
Just a side note....I compare how AA finance's and refinances it's debt to someone buying a home and refinances the home before it's built. Can't sustain operations by continually financing every piece of asset on the field.

I wouldn't bet on that. I've lived in my home for 4 years now, and I've refinanced twice. End result...same amount of debt, monthly mortgage payment lower by almost $800!
 
The problem is you do not have Airline people running this company.

???

By my count, Arpey has more experience in the airline industry than most other airline CEOs in America today, and collectively, based on what numbers I've been able to find, AMR management - collectively - has more total years of experience in the airline industry than just about any other major U.S. carrier.

One could argue that AMR management is a failure - but I don't think one could argue that this failure stems from a lack of airline experience. In fact, what is notable about AMR versus many of its competitors is the lack of non-airline experience among executives, which I have heard other union members argue is actually the problem.

How more efficient has this airline been operating since?
Newer efficient aircraft have been added since 2003.
Less employees doing more since 2003.
Growing alliances with other carriers worldwide.

... and yet the company's financial performance still continues to under-perform those of network competitors who used bankruptcy to freeze and dump pensions, further reduce pay, further reduce work rule inflexibility, outsource overhauls and outsource more flying to regionals, among others.

AA needs its employees to continue to be functional.

Non-"functional" employees didn't seem to slow Delta, Northwest, United, or USAirways (twice) down much in bankruptcy.

I'm not arguing that "functional," motivated employees aren't critical to the success of any company - they of course are - but I don't think one could honestly argue that airlines haven't been able to overcome whatever challenges they might have encountered in this area arising from bankruptcy.
 
I wouldn't bet on that. I've lived in my home for 4 years now, and I've refinanced twice. End result...same amount of debt, monthly mortgage payment lower by almost $800!
You're missing the point here. AA has mortgaged just about every aircraft in the fleet, including the ones recently purchased from Boeing, and are barely off the assembly line. I know because I put lender tags on brand new engines. They're running out of things to mortgage. This is why the company is on the brink of BK. Solid companies don't bring in 22B and lose 500 million.
 
You're missing the point here. AA has mortgaged just about every aircraft in the fleet, including the ones recently purchased from Boeing, and are barely off the assembly line. I know because I put lender tags on brand new engines. They're running out of things to mortgage. This is why the company is on the brink of BK. Solid companies don't bring in 22B and lose 500 million.

Yes, AA has mortgaged just about everything. So has DL. So has UA. So has CO. So has US. Every legacy airline has hocked nearly every available asset. The reason AA has mortgaged everything it owns is to stack up enough cash to try to get thru the crisis of the month/year and right now it's fuel that's almost $3/gal. If you run out of cash, and nobody will loan you more, you have only one option: Ch 11. If you keep a big pile of cash and borrow money when lenders will loan it to you, you might be able to avoid Ch 11. It's not rocket science.

AA ain't a "solid company."
 
You're missing the point here. AA has mortgaged just about every aircraft in the fleet, including the ones recently purchased from Boeing, and are barely off the assembly line. I know because I put lender tags on brand new engines. They're running out of things to mortgage. This is why the company is on the brink of BK. Solid companies don't bring in 22B and lose 500 million.

And that $500 million, my friend, is because of labor costs! Just ask AA managment!
 
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