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Outsourcing Flight Crews?

l8rd8r

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The Wall Street Journal-Oct 26, 05 front page..."F/A's might lose as Northwest works to save $195 million a year...Ailing Carrier seeks savings by pushing veteran staffers (F/A's) off prized overseas routes" Nov 16 they will ask the BK judge to cancel all current contracts. They are also trying to outsource pilots and ground workers.
"The situation at NW is potentially devastating to all f/a's across the country."..."One thing we have learned during this financial crisis in our industry is that proposals like this spread from carrier to carrier like the most virulent disease mankind has ever experienced"-Pat Friend Intl pres AFA
This is not a pretty picture. Granted its management putting presure on unions to accept concessions. But outsourcing is becoming a major trend in other areas of our industry. Is this possible in companies outside of BK?
 
This is a VERY SERIOUS issue and I certainly hope AFA gets involved with assisting our flying comrades over at NWA and help kill this issue before ALL the US majors join in "The Game". We all saw what was done to the great employees at MidAtlantic and I for one hope the collective group at MDA take ALL related parties to The Cleaners.......if this is american business ethics, I can see why the rest of world looks at the USA with contempt. Whatever happened to the days of hard working employees earning a decent living and having some sense of stability without fearing the rug being pulled out from under them the first opportunity another deceitful group of managers bully themselves on the property. My thoughts and prayers are with the folks at Northwest
 
NW is trying to outsource intl flying, and all domestic flying under 100 seats (think how many DC9s they have). They would start a new company to fly Embraers or Bombardier C Series.

This has already been pretty much done at US. Planes that would have had to be flown by mainline a few years ago have been farmed to outside companies. The in-house alter-ego division "MidAtlantic" is being replaced by an outside carrier.

The MAA thing will be the first time aircraft have been taken from the mainline and placed at an Express carrier, with the mainline jobs directly replaced.
 
Are they talking about using foreign nationals on the International routes from the U.S., or just on the foreign "continuations"--like Narita to Beijing or Hong Kong, for instance?
 
jimntx,
Good question, and I know where your going with it !!

"IF", (and for now It's only) "IF",

NW(led by "postal...DOUG") EVER attempts to operate flights like say DTW/MSP/SEA/PDX,LAX,SFO......over the Pacific OR Atlantic, with outsourced F/A's, then EVERY NW flight attendant better WALK OFF everywhere, and SHUT them down !!

A N D;

be supported by the THREAT, that every other Flight Attendant, at every USA carrier will do the same. !!

To put this in medical terms, there is a VITAL reason that when (God forbid) there is a Small Pox outbreak, that
1. You run and hide from it,
OR
2. YOU ERADICATE IT !!!!

#2 is the "sure fire/fool proof" way.

EVERY United States Based Flight Attendant NEEDS to be VERY SERIOUSLY talking/considering this potential "EPIDEMIC" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's
 
It is very important that ALL US-based Crew members need to be aware of.....pilots and f/a's alike- IF it happens at NWA it could very easily happen to ANY other airline, don't fool yourself. If the Management wanted to restrict INTRA Asian flying to foreign nationals in that region of the world, Labor could endure this setback........giving up ALL Mainland USA to Asia flying is ludicrous and Steenland and his Team better be prepared for a fight. Support the NWA fight and stay informed!
 
If it happens at NWA, it will most definitely happen to all the other carriers. Make no mistake, first the FA's then the pilots.

Count on it.

Dea
 
And this is a bad thing why? Sure, bad for the NWA F/A's, but good for the foreigners...

Of course, not being an American and working for an airline that is avowedly multi-national in hiring (Cathay Pacific - we now have crew from just about everywhere, including USA) I don't see the big deal about why one passport = higher pay than another.

As a union battle against lower priced workers - sure, but that holds equally to fighting Mid Atlantic & co., rather than specifically to foreigners.

PS Cathay is hiring US crew at present - it is cheaper to have US based crew flying the freighters than HK based crew. But it has sometimes been an interesting cultural challenge on both sides!
 
It is very important that ALL US-based Crew members need to be aware of.....pilots and f/a's alike- IF it happens at NWA it could very easily happen to ANY other airline, don't fool yourself. If the Management wanted to restrict INTRA Asian flying to foreign nationals in that region of the world, Labor could endure this setback........giving up ALL Mainland USA to Asia flying is ludicrous and Steenland and his Team better be prepared for a fight. Support the NWA fight and stay informed!
On the other site I guess a gent ran into some newly minted Hindi FA's in AMS . According to that post they will be permantly stationed there, at 400 buck a month pay. Don't know one can live there at 400 bucks a month. How could the Dutch immigration, and US officals allow that . Since thre Dutch are cracking down on foreigners.
 
NW wants to replace up to 75% of Int'l with foriegn nationals and yes they do want to do with flights to the USA and from the USA. Also they want to be able to have these flight attendants work flights within the US as part of their pattern of flying. If this were to happen anyone with about 16yrs or less would be gone!
 
Are the non-US F/As still NW employees? If so, it's the union's fault for letting NW have different pay scales for the same group of employees.
 
NW wants to replace up to 75% of Int'l with foriegn nationals and yes they do want to do with flights to the USA and from the USA. Also they want to be able to have these flight attendants work flights within the US as part of their pattern of flying. If this were to happen anyone with about 16yrs or less would be gone!

Ok, that's what I thought. I called the Texas Workforce Commission to be sure--may be known under a different agency name in your state. It's the agency that administers Unemployment Compensation and provides work search services. There is one in every state mandated and funded under Federal law.

What I found out is that the Alien Labor Certification Act is still in force. (I worked for the predecessor to the TWC back in the 70's). This law states that before you can hire a foreigner to work for you in the United States you have to certify to each state agency where the foreigner(s) would be working that there is currently no U.S. citizen or resident alien willing or able to do the job, or that the foreigner possesses some special skill or knowledge not available in the U.S.

The law is used most often when some company or university or research institution wants to bring in a highly specialized scientist or physician who has some expertise in a new technology or science. For instance, when I worked for the TWC in the 70's in Houston, we often had to process requests to bring in foreign doctors who had conducted some specialized research or treatment. These were often just to allow this person to work/teach in the U.S. for some limited time. It was rarely for permanent status for the person.

Regardless of what the bankruptcy court may rule, I think that NWA would have a hard time proving that there are no U.S. citizens or resident aliens willing or able to work flights to/from MSP and NRT. Beyond NRT, U.S. law would not apply. I doubt seriously that they would be allowed to hire FNs to work domestic flights, period.

Some of the highlights of the act...
1. In order to certify that there are no U.S. workers, the company must advertise in daily newspapers for workers of the type needed.
2. They can NOT put false requirements on the job. For instance, for someone to work domestic flights, you can not say "must speak/read/write Mandarin Chinese." "Must be able to lift 300 lbs. unassisted." "Must have Master's in Business Administration."
3. They can NOT offer below the prevailing industry wage for the job. This part is a little tricky because there is such a wide disparity in starting wages depending upon whether or not it is mainline or regional. In some regionals, the starting wage for flight attendants is as low as $12-$13/hr. They might get away with that, but they could not advertise a starting wage of $5.50/hr. Well, even if they did, we all know that they would still get applicants at that wage. The point of the whole exercise would be to prove that there were no qualified applicants. And, there are other laws that prevent them from refusing the type of people they would get at that pay rate. B)

If the AFA allows NWA to get away with this with some well placed political donations, the AFA should be sued by every single member at every airline for DFR.
 
If the AFA allows NWA to get away with this with some well placed political donations, the AFA should be sued by every single member at every airline for DFR.


Jim,
AFA doesn't represent the flight attendants at NW.
 
Jim,
AFA doesn't represent the flight attendants at NW.
If their union--whatever it happens to be--allows NWA to get away with ANY piece of this that can be covered by U.S. law, they should be sued for DFR.
 
The thing that NWA flight attendants have going against them is that it appears that they do not have a scope clause in their contract. NWA can open bases wherever they want and outsource the PFAA flight attendants. A very similar tactic was used by Alaska Airlines to outsource 500 unionized ramp workers in Seattle earlier this year.

At United, United operates foreign flight attendant bases in HKG, NRT, LHR, CDG, and FRA. All foreign flight attendants are governed under our AFA collective bargaining agreement and are on the AFA system seniority list. Additionally, we have a scope clause in our contract prohibiting the company's ability from outsourcing our jobs. Our scope clause states that every flight attendant performing duties on a United Airlines flight must be on the AFA seniority list and because of our scope, United does not own any of its regional partner airlines that fly as United Express. Furthermore, flying conducted by the foreign flight attendant bases is restricted to 40% of the company's international operations.

This is a very compelling topic and NWA management's tactics are an assault to our entire profession. Collectively, we should all be alert to the events unfolding at NWA and be reminded that PFAA's fight is our fight as well.

Princess K.:

I take exception to your comments about AFA not doing anything for their members. I feel that our UAL MEC Negotiating Committee did a stellar job of MINIMIZING our concessions. The company sought to make all Hawaii, Alaska, Mexico, Carribean, and Central American flying at domestic rates of pay (read $4 per flight hour less) as well as amending work rules and gutting our holiday pay. While we did concede 5 of 10 paid holidays, the fact that we retained 5 is remarkable (since no other airline's flight attendants enjoy holiday pay). Additionally, international pay rates were retained for all of the aforementioned flying. I believe that we continue to enjoy some of the best duty rigs and work rules in the industry. Speaking for someone who is represented by AFA, I have to give my Negotiating Team, and hence AFA, credit where I feel it is due.

Jimintx:

I believe that state law doesn't apply since flight attendants are governed under the National Railway Labor Act...
 

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