Overseas Checks

[Hackman]

So I am a scab and a fraud !! You people never cease to amaze me....

"Yeah, I know, he doesn't even write like an Englishman."

Just how are English people supposed to write things then? Enlighten me....

I have changed my local time if that will go any way to prove my identity to you. Like FM said, forum default.

To answer some of your questions:

- An A-check, at least 4 men.

- No TGWU for maintenance, never has been. What good has the TWU ever done for you? You all complain about how bad they are.

I was wondering since your a non-union AA employee what kind of concessions did the compAAny demand from you???

What exactly did you lose over in the UK as an AA employee???

What has the twu done for us??? Well, they agreed to the most massive concessions in history in 2003, and started the downward trend back in 1983. Management at nearly every airline (except SWA) has aspired to follow the twu lead down the sewer since then.

 

[aafsc]

I was wondering since your a non-union AA employee what kind of concessions did the compAAny demand from you???

What exactly did you lose over in the UK as an AA employee???

What has the twu done for us??? Well, they agreed to the most massive concessions in history in 2003, and started the downward trend back in 1983. Management at nearly every airline (except SWA) has aspired to follow the twu lead down the sewer since then.

Not a cheerleader for the TWU but you are mistaken on 2 points. First, what AA employees lost in 2003 is far less than what the employees of the bankrupts lost. Second, AA/TWU did not start the downward trend in 1983; CO did in 1982 when they declared their first bankruptcy, broke their unions, cut pay rates in half, eliminated benefits, terminated pensions, fired half the workforce, and outsourced all heavy overhaul. You can also credit People Express, Northeastern, Pan Am, and Eastern. In fact, the pay cuts at Eastern actually started in the mid to late 1970s.

 

[aafsc]

I was wondering since your a non-union AA employee what kind of concessions did the compAAny demand from you???

What exactly did you lose over in the UK as an AA employee???

What has the twu done for us??? Well, they agreed to the most massive concessions in history in 2003, and started the downward trend back in 1983. Management at nearly every airline (except SWA) has aspired to follow the twu lead down the sewer since then.

Also, how can you say that the TWU is "leading the way down the sewer" when the TWU represents F/A's and fleetservice at Southwest who by far are the highest paid in the industry?

 

[Bob Owens]

I wouldn't call him a scab. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line in order to take a striker's job. This person is in the U.K. (which is much more union than the U.S.). The foreigners that are AA employees have their own unions in their own countries and they have their own collective bargaining agreements. When AA purchased the Eastern's Latin American routes and twa's LHR routes, the governments of those countries transfered the route authorities to AA on the condition that AA take the employees and honor their contract.

Well this is what I said."Basically you are like a scab, someone doing union work who is not in the union."

The fact is he is a non-union worker doing work that is union. He does not belong to a union. He is taking a union workers job.

Just because he is in the UK it doesnt automatically mean he is union, instead it means that he benifits from the strong position that unions have even though he may or may not support unionism. I believe he has stated that he does not support the idea of unions.

Bob and Chuck complaining that their Brit co-worker is a scab because he doesn't belong to the TWU is laughable.

Just yesterday (or the day before), Mr Owens admitted that he doesn't really belong to a union - it's just a dues collection agency that provides almost nothing in return. Now all of a sudden he's indignant that his co-workers in the UK (and elsewhere) don't belong to the The Worthless Union. 😀

Just keep 'em coming, Mr Owens.

Fair enough, but we are working on that.

 

[Bob Owens]

When an A/C sits on the ground for 8 to 10 hrs in a class I city and has no check accomplished on it then flies to EZE, LHR or PTY and has one done on it, that a problem

Exactly! When they reduce the checks done here even though the aircraft and the time is available, then do checks overseas, its a problem. In the past every airplane that sat overnight got at least a PS check. Thats no longer the case.

 

[Bob Owens]

I was wondering since your a non-union AA employee what kind of concessions did the compAAny demand from you???

What exactly did you lose over in the UK as an AA employee???

Blimey, I think the wanker has vanished!!

Seriously, he doesnt want to answer that.

For one thing they were told NOT to discuss what they lost, which is very little. Their Holidays, that the Brittish Labor movement got put in place,(in some cases they couldn't even think of a reason for the Holiday so they simply call it a Bank Holiday) went untouched, their vacation time, as well their medical benifits, pensions, OT rules etc, all went untouched.

His wage is also about 20% higher than his US based "coworker".


So its easy for him to sit back and justify why the colonists should settle for less and take it on the chin, because he didnt have to. Besides, wages have always been better in the Empire than in the colonies.

 

[Bob Owens]

Not a cheerleader for the TWU but you are mistaken on 2 points. First, what AA employees lost in 2003 is far less than what the employees of the bankrupts lost.

Far less? Such as?

Second, AA/TWU did not start the downward trend in 1983; CO did in 1982 when they declared their first bankruptcy, broke their unions, cut pay rates in half, eliminated benefits, terminated pensions, fired half the workforce, and outsourced all heavy overhaul.

Continental went BK a second time shortly thereafter.They were never a big problem for the majors since their heavily leverged status made their costs high despite lower labor costs.

You can also credit People Express, Northeastern, Pan Am, and Eastern. In fact, the pay cuts at Eastern actually started in the mid to late 1970s.

TWU was at both Pan Am and Eastern.

The fact is the AA was the first to get concessions when the company really didnt need them. Peoples Express, Northeastern, Pan Am and Eastern were all dying airlines where the employees were fooled into trying to administer life support by giving concessions, it didnt work. But when you look at the carriers that survived, AA, UA, NWA, Delta, USAIR, its clear who was the leader in giving concessions to "healthy carriers". The TWU.

 

[aafsc]

Blimey, I think the wanker has vanished!!

Seriously, he doesnt want to answer that.

For one thing they were told NOT to discuss what they lost, which is very little. Their Holidays, that the Brittish Labor movement got put in place,(in some cases they couldn't even think of a reason for the Holiday so they simply call it a Bank Holiday) went untouched, their vacation time, as well their medical benifits, pensions, OT rules etc, all went untouched.

His wage is also about 20% higher than his US based "coworker".
So its easy for him to sit back and justify why the colonists should settle for less and take it on the chin, because he didnt have to. Besides, wages have always been better in the Empire than in the colonies.

The UK has socialized medicine which is provided by the state, the NHS, not AA. In most foreign countries, they have labor laws that dictate to the companies (including AA), what they are obligated to provide for the employees such as holidays and severance. If these benefits are guaranteed to the employees by law, then there is no way AA could demand them as concessions.

 

[Oneflyer]

Blimey, I think the wanker has vanished!!

Seriously, he doesnt want to answer that.

For one thing they were told NOT to discuss what they lost, which is very little. Their Holidays, that the Brittish Labor movement got put in place,(in some cases they couldn't even think of a reason for the Holiday so they simply call it a Bank Holiday) went untouched, their vacation time, as well their medical benifits, pensions, OT rules etc, all went untouched.

His wage is also about 20% higher than his US based "coworker".
So its easy for him to sit back and justify why the colonists should settle for less and take it on the chin, because he didnt have to. Besides, wages have always been better in the Empire than in the colonies.

So Bob, I guess the fact the British are taxed significantly higher and have a higher cost of living doesn't really matter?

Funny how you are always willing to point out the positives of someone elses situation, but never ready to point out the negatives.

The plain fact of the matter is that it isn't union work, its company work. The company should conduct that work in the most efficient manner possible.

 

[aafsc]

Far less? Such as?
Continental went BK a second time shortly thereafter.They were never a big problem for the majors since their heavily leverged status made their costs high despite lower labor costs.



TWU was at both Pan Am and Eastern.

The fact is the AA was the first to get concessions when the company really didnt need them. Peoples Express, Northeastern, Pan Am and Eastern were all dying airlines where the employees were fooled into trying to administer life support by giving concessions, it didnt work. But when you look at the carriers that survived, AA, UA, NWA, Delta, USAIR, its clear who was the leader in giving concessions to "healthy carriers". The TWU.

Bob, it is an undeniable fact that the others lost a lot more than we did. For example, I have two relatives that worked at UA, one a pilot the other a ramper. From the mid 1990s to about 2001 they worked under concessionary contracts in order to purchase a majority of stock in the company (except for the F/As). After that contract became amendable, they got the snapback and raises. Shortly after, UA declared Ch.11 in which they subsequently: 1. took cuts in the rates of pay. 2.Lost a large number of jobs due to farm outs. 3. Lost their pensions. 4. Lost their retirement medical (unless they want to pay hundreds of dollars a month). 5. Lost their "investment" when the stock became virtually worthless after their ch-11. My uncle (the pilot) told me UA could disappear tomorrow and it would not affect him at all because they took everything already. The only thing left is passes and now they even want to charge for that. Basically, the same thing happened at the other bankrupts. Compare them to AA where we: 1. Still do most of our own work-although we did lose some like overnight cabin. 2. AA people still have pensions and retirement medical- which is a huge issue for those who are in, at, or near retirement. 3. AA stock is actually worth something. 4. And even AA passes are still free (for domestic, coach for people with 5+ years). Retirement benefits are a form of deferred compensation. So when one loses that accumulated benefit, that means you really made less over the life of your career. Stack the career earnings (in terms of total compensation) of an AA employee (especially a pre 1983 employee) to any one of the other legacy's employees and the AA employee will have faired better.

As far as CO and EAL not being a threat to the others (including AA), I disagree. CO at the time was big out west (LAX, DEN, and IAH-Texas International (Texas Air). They were a primarily East-West carrier and went up against UA in DEN and AA in DFW(via their IAH hub). EAL had an East West hub in MCI. So with 3 CO/EA East West hubs, they were competing directly with AA and UA. UA was very fortunate because it acquired Pan Am's Pacific routes which were a gold mine; AA wouldn't get EA's Latin American routes for another 4 or 5 years.

You are right about the TWU being at both EAL and Pan Am, however, ALL unions gave concessions at those two carriers; not just the TWU.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Not a cheerleader for the TWU but you are mistaken on 2 points. First, what AA employees lost in 2003 is far less than what the employees of the bankrupts lost. Second, AA/TWU did not start the downward trend in 1983; CO did in 1982 when they declared their first bankruptcy, broke their unions, cut pay rates in half, eliminated benefits, terminated pensions, fired half the workforce, and outsourced all heavy overhaul. You can also credit People Express, Northeastern, Pan Am, and Eastern. In fact, the pay cuts at Eastern actually started in the mid to late 1970s.

aafsc, just a question here. But when a company goes into BK they slash pay & benefits. But when that company exits BK do pay & benefits return to their pre-BK levels? If that is indeed true that would be better than what happened here at AA. The twu did not negotiate snap backs.

Also, I agree with the point about CO and lorenzo's attack on labor. But EAL struck and EAL folded eventually. That action delayed the attack on pay & benefits. NWA AMTs were next to stand up for all of us. I say delayed not put off. The twu did push the bar when they removed AMTs from the back shops. Other airlines were forced to follow.

 

[777 fixer]

Exactly! When they reduce the checks done here even though the aircraft and the time is available, then do checks overseas, its a problem. In the past every airplane that sat overnight got at least a PS check. Thats no longer the case.

So Bob, are you willing to admit that just becasue you're a line mechanic does not mean you are immune to outsourcing?

 

[Oneflyer]

aafsc, just a question here. But when a company goes into BK they slash pay & benefits. But when that company exits BK do pay & benefits return to their pre-BK levels? If that is indeed true that would be better than what happened here at AA. The twu did not negotiate snap backs.

Pay and benefits absolutely DO NOT return to pre-bankruptcy levels, they stay at the levels set by the company in BK. Those pay levels are conditions of exit financing and must be guaranteed for a set period of time so that those providing exit financing can get their money back.

Also, I agree with the point about CO and lorenzo's attack on labor. But EAL struck and EAL folded eventually. That action delayed the attack on pay & benefits. NWA AMTs were next to stand up for all of us. I say delayed not put off. The twu did push the bar when they removed AMTs from the back shops. Other airlines were forced to follow.

How exactly did EAL delay the attack on pay & benefits? If anything it sped up the process, because it showed other airline unions that striking didn't work.

The NWA strike was even worse for union workers because the company showed how replaceable the AMTs that struck were, they couldn't even ground the airline. People kept flying and now NWA is about to exit bankruptcy.

 

[aafsc]

Pay and benefits absolutely DO NOT return to pre-bankruptcy levels, they stay at the levels set by the company in BK. Those pay levels are conditions of exit financing and must be guaranteed for a set period of time so that those providing exit financing can get their money back.
How exactly did EAL delay the attack on pay & benefits? If anything it sped up the process, because it showed other airline unions that striking didn't work.

The NWA strike was even worse for union workers because the company showed how replaceable the AMTs that struck were, they couldn't even ground the airline. People kept flying and now NWA is about to exit bankruptcy.

Ken, I agree with Oneflyer's first paragraph in answering your question. When a company comes out of bankruptcy their wages do not snap back. After CO exited it's first bankruptcy there was no snap back, in fact, those people worked under Lorenzo's draconian conditions up until only a few years ago when in the late 1990s after Bethune took over and brought their wages up to just under what AA and the others were making; but they still outsource heavy overhaul and have their own ramp people only at their hubs and maybe a couple of large cities. AA employees and the employees of the bankrupts can work to recover what we all have lost when the various contracts become amendable. However, AA employees are fortunate in that their deferred compensation (pensions, retirement medical, etc.) are still intact because it is my understanding there are quite a few people close to or at retirement age at AA.

Regarding Oneflyer's second paragraph, I totally disagree. What happened at EAL did in fact, delay the attacks on others. The EAL strike was successful in that (unlike NW) EAL shut down. A strike is basically a declaration of war against company management. There are only two acceptable outcomes from a striker's point of view; either get the contract you are demanding or the death of the company. Even though the EAL people lost their careers, the company was dealt a death blow by the strike. However, EAL was also weakened by the fact that many of it's valuable assets were either sold off or transferred to CO. So Oneflyer is incorrect when he/she states that "the strike didn't work" it worked perfectly because EAL is dead. But Oneflyer is totally correct regarding the strike at NW. The fact that NW was able to fly through the strike shows without a doubt who won and who lost that strike. One of the two striker's goals that I have stated above did not happen at NWA; AMFA did not obtain an anywhere near acceptable contract nor were they able to force the company to shut it's doors permanently. It was easy for NW to replace those who went on strike. The were able to do this because they had a very well thought out plan that entailed steadily reducing it's AMT ranks over time through layoffs which reduced the mechanic's own strength in numbers. If AMFA would have been able to keep heavy overhaul inhouse and had all of it's 10,500 AMT members go on strike at once, AMFA possibly could have won at NWA. AT EAL, right up to the strike, the IAM performed ALL work inhouse which meant it was much much more difficult for EAL management to have to replace line and overhaul maintanence in addition having to replace all the rampers.

At NW, they were starting to cross their own picket lines after only four months. After about a year and three months, AMFA and their membership voted to capitulate and accept the imposed contract at NWA. NWA management clearly won in this case.

At EAL, very few crossed the picket line and the strike lasted for two years and did not end until EAL shut it's doors forever. The EAL/IAM members did not capitulate. The IAM/EAL people clearly won in this case.

 

[777GUY]

Blimey, I think the wanker has vanished!!

Seriously, he doesnt want to answer that.

For one thing they were told NOT to discuss what they lost, which is very little. Their Holidays, that the Brittish Labor movement got put in place,(in some cases they couldn't even think of a reason for the Holiday so they simply call it a Bank Holiday) went untouched, their vacation time, as well their medical benifits, pensions, OT rules etc, all went untouched.

His wage is also about 20% higher than his US based "coworker".
So its easy for him to sit back and justify why the colonists should settle for less and take it on the chin, because he didnt have to. Besides, wages have always been better in the Empire than in the colonies.

What's with the name calling Bob. That's very big of you. I had not vanished at all, I just have more important things to do with my time.

To answer Hackman's original question; Apart from the immediate 25% reduction in workforce, we also have an overtime ban, loss of licence pay, tool allowance and London weighting amongst other things.

Now the fact that the US Dollar is extremely weak against the GBP at the moment, does not mean that I am earning 20% more than you at all. That could easily be the other way round.

I live in a different country, under a different government, under different laws, which unfortunately AA has to abide by if they want to operate from here. That is not my problem.