Overseas Checks

[eolesen]

Gee, the lack of self-righteous retorts to 777GUY's factual reporting of his concessions is a shock. Not.

 

[Bob Owens]

The UK has socialized medicine which is provided by the state, the NHS, not AA. In most foreign countries, they have labor laws that dictate to the companies (including AA), what they are obligated to provide for the employees such as holidays and severance. If these benefits are guaranteed to the employees by law, then there is no way AA could demand them as concessions.

And who do you think pushed for those laws? The union backed Labor Party thats who. 777 has repeatedly stated that he has no use for unions despite the fact that he benifits from their actions.

 

[Bob Owens]

So Bob, I guess the fact the British are taxed significantly higher and have a higher cost of living doesn't really matter?

Do they really? I have relatives all over the Brittish Isles and when we compare taxes we certainly are not better off. Over there it says Tax, boom, one payment. That tax also provides for health care,pensions and other entitlements that go along with pensions such as electric, phone and heating credits.

Over here we have fed, state, Fica, HI Fica and then seperate property tax, property tax alone is near 10% of my gross. In return for that what do I get? No medical, a small SS pension with no phone, electric or heating. Instead of our tax dollars going for things like that we get to see how they load up billions and disburse them all over Iraq!

Without a doubt luxuries are more expensive with their VATs and all, but at least the price is what you pay.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, it is an undeniable fact that the others lost a lot more than we did. For example, I have two relatives that worked at UA, one a pilot the other a ramper. From the mid 1990s to about 2001 they worked under concessionary contracts in order to purchase a majority of stock in the company (except for the F/As).

And at AA workers worked under similar concessions for nothing.

After that contract became amendable, they got the snapback and raises. Shortly after, UA declared Ch.11 in which they subsequently: 1. took cuts in the rates of pay. 2.Lost a large number of jobs due to farm outs. 3. Lost their pensions. 4. Lost their retirement medical (unless they want to pay hundreds of dollars a month). 5. Lost their "investment" when the stock became virtually worthless after their ch-11.

We had nothing to Snap back to. We took cuts in pay. We lost a large number of jobs. We have been paying for our retiree medical for over 15 years. Since our pay was cut so was our pension. If they left before C-11 they probably did well. In fact I know a guy who left UAL when the stock was quite high, he didnt want to leave at the time but now he considers that he made out on the deal.

My uncle (the pilot) told me UA could disappear tomorrow and it would not affect him at all because they took everything already. The only thing left is passes and now they even want to charge for that. Basically, the same thing happened at the other bankrupts. Compare them to AA where we: 1. Still do most of our own work-although we did lose some like overnight cabin. 2. AA people still have pensions and retirement medical- which is a huge issue for those who are in, at, or near retirement. 3. AA stock is actually worth something. 4. And even AA passes are still free (for domestic, coach for people with 5+ years).

A lot of people feel the same way about AA. AA charged for passes for years. Now they may be free but try and use them.The pensions and the medical we are paying for. The pensions through our concessions and the medical through payroll deduction for "prefunding". "AA stock is actually worth something." Good for the stockholders, but I'm still out $120,000.

Retirement benefits are a form of deferred compensation. So when one loses that accumulated benefit, that means you really made less over the life of your career.

UAL workers will still get a pension, they will no longer accumulate credied years but they have a 401K plan with a match now. That being said its more likely that during the next round of talks they will go for the money. Portability does have its advantages.

Stack the career earnings (in terms of total compensation) of an AA employee (especially a pre 1983 employee) to any one of the other legacy's employees and the AA employee will have faired better.

Maybe pre1983 but post B-scale you are dead wrong. AA had the longest progressions to top pay, at one point 12 years vs 5 years everywhere else. AA starting pay was the lowest. So post B-scale AA employees made considerably less. Add in the fact that they lose the first year of service and it cancels out the so called higher multiplier.

As far as CO and EAL not being a threat to the others (including AA), I disagree. CO at the time was big out west (LAX, DEN, and IAH-Texas International (Texas Air). They were a primarily East-West carrier and went up against UA in DEN and AA in DFW(via their IAH hub). EAL had an East West hub in MCI. So with 3 CO/EA East West hubs, they were competing directly with AA and UA. UA was very fortunate because it acquired Pan Am's Pacific routes which were a gold mine; AA wouldn't get EA's Latin American routes for another 4 or 5 years.

Well he fact is that you are at a disadvantage when you fight on two fronts, and as you admit they were battling AA and UA. Maybe thats why they went BK three times.

You are right about the TWU being at both EAL and Pan Am, however, ALL unions gave concessions at those two carriers; not just the TWU.

But the TWU lead the way no doubt.

What's with the name calling Bob. That's very big of you. I had not vanished at all, I just have more important things to do with my time.

To answer Hackman's original question; Apart from the immediate 25% reduction in workforce, we also have an overtime ban, loss of licence pay, tool allowance and London weighting amongst other things.

Now the fact that the US Dollar is extremely weak against the GBP at the moment, does not mean that I am earning 20% more than you at all. That could easily be the other way round.

I apologize for fact you took offense at my attempt at levity, I forgot how serious you people with your German heritage are, unlike the Celts who are a little more thick skinned.

Yea I've seen OT bans too, until something broke and they needed more bodies.What do they do, make you stay without pay or let the plane sit?

Tool allowance? They paid for your tools? ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, You had a hole?

London weighting? Whats that?

When all is said and done how much was your regular pay cut, not counting OT?

I live in a different country, under a different government, under different laws, which unfortunately AA has to abide by if they want to operate from here. That is not my problem.

Fortunately for you that your country has a strong union culture which you reject despite the fact that you benifit from it. Not my problem, but a problem for those who fought for what you take for granted.

 

[nofaultfound]

Do they really? I have relatives all over the Brittish Isles and when we compare taxes we certainly are not better off. Over there it says Tax, boom, one payment. That tax also provides for health care,pensions and other entitlements that go along with pensions such as electric, phone and heating credits.

Over here we have fed, state, Fica, HI Fica and then seperate property tax, property tax alone is near 10% of my gross. In return for that what do I get? No medical, a small SS pension with no phone, electric or heating. Instead of our tax dollars going for things like that we get to see how they load up billions and disburse them all over Iraq!

Without a doubt luxuries are more expensive with their VATs and all, but at least the price is what you pay.

Maybe your relatives forgot to mention the following taxes we all have to pay...
Council tax-approx £1400 pa
VAT on all items except food and kids clothes 17.5%
Petrol £1.83 per LITRE. About $8 per gallon.
House prices....start from £200,000 for 3 bedrooms
Car tax...minimum £110 per year
Income tax 22% below £30,000 40% above
National insurance another 5%
Basically give the taxman 33% of your gross salary, then you still have to live, drive to work, pay for central heating, eat, pay a mortgage...etc.
This is why we earn more than our Stateside colleagues.
At the end of the day you choose to work in a unionized enviroment. I could join the union, i have been in a union but i found i had better uses for £45 a month than give it to a loudmouth gobshite, who when there was a real problem, disapearred.
I am an aviation professional, in addition to my A&P i also hold EASA qualifications. I agree with 777flyer, there seems to be a stronger work ethic in Europe than in the US.
Unfortunatly some of the regulars on this forum seem to think that being in a union is a god given right to slack off and not do any productive work.
We all know that it doesn't take 20 man hours to do a 777 A Check but thats what the union have agreed it takes.
At the very most it takes 4 experienced AMTS 8 man hours to do.

Rant over, until the next innane posting

 

[777 fixer]

UAL workers will still get a pension, they will no longer accumulate credied years but they have a 401K plan with a match now. That being said its more likely that during the next round of talks they will go for the money. Portability does have its advantages.

Well Bob you should go over to the United board and tell them how good they have it now that their pensions have been handed to the PBGC.

 

[eolesen]

Maybe your relatives forgot to mention the following taxes we all have to pay...

You forgot the TV tax (over-the-air television is not free in the UK), the "parking in congested areas" day tax regardless if you're a resident or not, and newly doubled departure taxes for those who have the audacity to take a holiday outside the UK...

Sure, we complain about taxation in the US, but it really pales in comparison to what the EU member states have imposed on their citizens/subjects/residents.

 

[FWAAA]

aafsc, just a question here. But when a company goes into BK they slash pay & benefits. But when that company exits BK do pay & benefits return to their pre-BK levels? If that is indeed true that would be better than what happened here at AA. The twu did not negotiate snap backs.

I agree with Oneflyer's and aafsc's posts about snapbacks - there's no "automatic" snapback just because a bankrupt company exits Ch 11. UAL and USAir mechanics' pay didn't return to pre-BK levels upon their employers' emergence from bankruptcy.

Snapbacks would have been great for the employees at AA, but realistically, exactly when would they have taken effect? Upon the first quarterly profit? Upon the first billion dollar annual profit?

$1.6 billion of annual concessions (suffered by the represented employees) at AA dwarf the ability of the company to simply restore all in one year. Well, unless AMR suddenly begins showing profits of $2 or $3 billion a year. And that's real likely to happen, right? Maybe so if oil falls back to $12/bbl like in 1998-99.

None of the three AA unions negotiated snapbacks because AA didn't offer them. Just like ponies for all, they weren't on the table. In 2003, it didn't look like AA would be able to stay out of Ch 11, let alone suddenly become very profitable. Even now, the 2006 net profit isn't anything like the mid-199s.

I truly hope that AA's fortunes improve and that the workgroups with highly specialized skills can once again command higher wages. But with schools cranking out pilots and mechanics, and with increased outsourcing of maintenance, there isn't any shortage of workers, so it doesn't look likely. And without a worker shortage, even "good" unions won't be able to suddenly collect an economic rent in the face of high supply. It just ain't gonna happen. Certainly didn't happen at NWA. If your employer wants to replace you, and can find the scabs to do it, then you aren't gonna collect any economic rent. None whatsoever. Just like at Super-Scab infested NWA.

Think AA management wasn't paying attention to that fight? All they'd have to do is replace the line maintenance guys with some scabs, ship off the overhaul to Singapore, El Salvador or China and viola - you're beaten. Beaten and in worse shape than your current situation. Keep dreaming of turning things around. We need dreamers in this world.

It's not about fighting or fleeing. It's about doing something for a living for which employers can (and will) pay a premium - a hefty premium. More and more, airplane driving and airplane fixing just don't look like those types of jobs.

 

[777 fixer]

I agree with Oneflyer's and aafsc's posts about snapbacks - there's no "automatic" snapback just because a bankrupt company exits Ch 11. UAL and USAir mechanics' pay didn't return to pre-BK levels upon their employers' emergence from bankruptcy.

The creditors would scream bloody murder if an airline came to them with an exit plan that included snapbacks.

 

[skydrol]

And who do you think pushed for those laws? The union backed Labor Party thats who. 777 has repeatedly stated that he has no use for unions despite the fact that he benifits from their actions.

The thing is they probably did that many years ago? The TWU did many good things a long time ago also but they suck now. My take on it is most of the union leaders in America decided to survive as a buisness back in the 80s and only are concerned with collecting dues. Why will nobody mention what happened when AMFA members at NW went on strike and how various "unions" in the USA gladly helped the company break them. At that point i concluded there is no hope in unions in the airline industry for the mechanic. Now before someone says show me your documented proof i say you know what happened and do your own research or just call me names whatever you want to do i could care less. If you were coherent at the time and followed that story then you know. I am just saying i can understand why someone who is not in a closed shop situation and has a choice to give some fat cats money which by now i figure i have paid 10,500 dollars for "they can do that brother" would opt out. I mean i am only as good as the most worthless piece of crap worker that never hits a lick we recieve the same pay.

 

[eolesen]

The creditors would scream bloody murder if an airline came to them with an exit plan that included snapbacks.

Not necessarily. Snapbacks would probably pass in a plan which paid outstanding claims in full or nearly in full plus stock options.

Plus, AA's concessions were to avoid bankruptcy, there really wasn't anything stopping a snapback clause, since creditors wouldn't be a blocking factor.

 

[skydrol]

Hello just knod if you can hear me , is anyone at home?
common rag on my spelling at least??????

 

[Oneflyer]

Hello just knod if you can hear me , is anyone at home?
common rag on my spelling at least??????

Bob is at a Workers of the world summit in Havana, he'll be home shortly with more propaganda.

 

[eolesen]

Either that or vacationing in Venezuela.

 

[ch53D]

More work being shipped oversea.

8 A/C have had A-CK 1’s done at EZE and LHR since 2-12-07.

B777 Time Control Service (TCS) Check
From Line Operations Support: Changes to the 777 stand-alone TCS Check are planned to go into effect Monday, February 12, with expanded work to the A Checks. The 777 TCS Check accomplished 500 hours from the B Check is being repackaged to provide more manpower flexibility at DFW. The repackage spreads the maintenance items across 3 A Checks, numbered A1, A2 and A3 and scheduled at the current 777 A Check locations. The Interior Condition/Check tasks will continue to be scheduled at 500 hours. (See attachment for additional details.)

The attachment can be viewed at me.aa.com. Click on Daily Maintenance News Line then click on 2-9-07 news link.

This work use to be B-CK before they upped the hours on B-CK’s from 500 to 900 hours. There were cards that needed done at 500 hours so is drove a new check (TCS). Now they have changed the work into A-CK 1, 2 and 3. So the bottom line is B-CK work is now being accomplished overseas.