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Pilot Concessions

Bigsky said:
Earth to KCflyer, come in KCFlyer. So now were comparing the secretaries of Dallas to Airline pilots? If I park my car at the airport for seven days, it had better be covered by the company. Do the Dallas secretaries go to work for seven days in a row....the dreaded 168 hour shift?

cheers

bigsky
No, but last I heard, secretaries in Dallas were going to work 5 days a week for 52 weeks a year. Airline pilots might park their cars two days longer, but they DO get a bit more time off than the Dallas secretary. Bottom line - the Dallas secretary has her car parked in a parking garage for a lot more time than an airline pilot has his car parked at an airport. Oh...and the secretary doesn't have any "per diem" that they are paid for those hours that they are NOT working. And a lot of your passengers, who have THEIR cars parked at an airport and who rode in the back of your plane weren't getting something called a "per diem" for those 168 hours that THEY were on the road. In fact, they got paid nothing for the time they slept. Can an airline pilot make that same claim????
 
KCFlyer said:
Oh...and the secretary doesn't have any "per diem" that they are paid for those hours that they are NOT working. And a lot of your passengers, who have THEIR cars parked at an airport and who rode in the back of your plane weren't getting something called a "per diem" for those 168 hours that THEY were on the road. In fact, they got paid nothing for the time they slept. Can an airline pilot make that same claim????
Actually, many companies do pay allowances for meals away from home and many simply expense meals. So you could in fact say that many do receive per diem. You could make an argument either way.
 
luv2fly said:
Actually, many companies do pay allowances for meals away from home and many simply expense meals. So you could in fact say that many do receive per diem. You could make an argument either way.
Oh...don't get me wrong, many companies pay for meals on the road. It's just that they don't pay an hourly rate while one sleeps. And if the businessman just crashes and orders a club sandwich for dinner...that's all he gets reimbursed for. Not picking nits here, just pointing out that an awful lot of folks flying in steerage are away from home more than they are at home, and they aren't being compensated in ways that some airline personnel take for granted. And also, just pointing out that there are lots of folks who earn far less than even an LCC First Officer who have to pay for their parking every single day.
 
"but they DO get a bit more time off than the Dallas secretary. Bottom line - the Dallas secretary has her car parked in a parking garage for a lot more time than an airline pilot has his car parked at an airport."
"who have THEIR cars parked at an airport and who rode in the back of your plane weren't getting something called a "per diem" for those 168 hours that THEY were on the road. In fact, they got paid nothing for the time they slept. Can an airline pilot make that same claim????"

WADR, you just confirmed your ignorance of the airline lifestyle. I've done both. I work a "normal" schedule now. I had no IDEA how much better it is. FWIW, airline crews DON'T get paid to sleep, they get a "trip rig" that prevents the company from sticking them in a hotel for 6 days and paying them for 3 hours. It ENCOURAGES the company to schedule efficiently. It jusyt boggles my minfd that you'd make that statement considering your employer pays you to surf the USAviation webboards.... Tax dollars at work 🙄
 
Busdrivr,

Are you implying that KCFlyer has a laptop and is indulging in this "high-level" US Aviation board discussion while being payed by SWA?
 
Busdrvr said:
It jusyt boggles my minfd that you'd make that statement considering your employer pays you to surf the USAviation webboards.... Tax dollars at work 🙄
Your tax dollars don't pay me after 5 p.m. Sorry.
 
KCFlyer said:
Oh...don't get me wrong, many companies pay for meals on the road. It's just that they don't pay an hourly rate while one sleeps.
So, INSTEAD OF getting directly reimbursed for meals and other expenses while on the road, airline crews get a dollar or two per hour while they are on the road to cover those things. Probably comes out about the same, and it's probably easier to manage to just do the per diem and say "spend it how you want to" with a large travelling workforce instead of dealing with hundreds of thousands of paper receipts.

I am not understanding why you think the per diem system is some sort of windfall. Or why you think it is a huge deal to have an employer provide parking-- a lot of companies do that. If paid parking is such a big deal and is not provided, I am sure you would just recommend that employee simply quit and find a new job because there are plenty of other employers out there, right?
 
"Are you implying that KCFlyer has a laptop and is indulging in this "high-level" US Aviation board discussion while being payed by SWA?"

NO, KC doesn't work for SWA. Heck, I think there would be some validity for an industry employee to surf these webs. It can give you some insight into how the masses feel.

"Per diem"

A NWA or UAL Capt with 30 years experience takes off from the west coast for a 4 day trip to the orient. In the back is an 18 y.o. Air Force E-1, who is also on a 4 day trip. Who do you think gets the most per diem? Ya think it's a little strange that the AF pays it's lowest of the low ranking members MORE in perdiem than a Airline pays it's most senior employees?
 
Busdrvr said:
Ya think it's a little strange that the AF pays it's lowest of the low ranking members MORE in perdiem than a Airline pays it's most senior employees?
I'll betcha he'd trade wages with you in a heartbeat....
 
I think Duane (et al) will have some heartburn soon. The mechanics just got a negotiated raise. Shades of EAL....

It's unfortunate, but if the mechanics are not willing to step to the plate and very soon, I am afraid all they will see is a further outsourcing of NW maintenance. One way or another NW will continue to reduce it's costs.

cheers

bigsky
 
Since NWA is already at their contractual limits for outsourcing, that scenario is unlikely. As for the NWA technicians 'stepping up to the plate', I would not look for it any time soon. The NWA TCC agreement is amendable in May, 2005 and, if past experience is any indicator, will take several years to settle.

The actions NWA has taken in the last several years has had the effect of 'poisoning the well' in the minds of the TCC membership and that membership has made it clear they are not interested in discussing concessions, at all.
 
Last update: May 26, 2004 at 7:49 AM
Northwest pilots prefer pay cuts to job cuts
Liz Fedor, Star Tribune
May 26, 2004NWA0526
Pilots at Northwest Airlines want their $200 million in annual labor savings to come primarily through pay cuts rather than changes in scheduling, vacations or other work rules, a pilots union leader said Tuesday.

"Our philosophy is to make our cost reductions in W-2s rather than changing work rules," which could produce more job losses, said Curt Kruse, a spokesman for the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).

The union outlined its negotiating approach in a four-page memo recently mailed to pilots. Kruse, a Northwest A320 captain, elaborated on ALPA's strategy in a Tuesday interview.

Last month, Northwest's pilots union leaders voted unanimously to propose $200 million in annual labor cost savings in order to help the Eagan-based airline regain profitability. Northwest management has said it needs to cut pilot costs by $442 million a year.

Kruse said pilot negotiators would like to reach a tentative agreement with Northwest by September or October.

The cost reductions the pilots are proposing would run through 2006, as opposed to the 6½-year agreement sought by management.

"The $200 million was not a number we grabbed out of the air," Kruse said. "Our analysis shows that it would bring us down to a pilot unit cost which would be competitive with our main competitors, mainly United and American," he said.

It's unclear how much of the airline's total savings will come from pay rate cuts, because the union might accept some work rule changes that have no impact or limited effect on staffing levels. The pilots union also might be given credit for separate agreements that provide an economic benefit to the airline, such as one under discussion covering expansion of the cargo division.

The current contract includes a pay range of $35,000 to $240,000 a year. Northwest's compensation is the second-highest in the industry behind Delta Air Lines. Among the major carriers, Kruse said Northwest had been the second-lowest for several years.

But that all changed when US Airways and United Airlines filed for bankruptcy protection in 2002, and American Airlines averted bankruptcy in 2003. The trio substantially reduced pay rates for airline employees, and some pilot groups agreed to scheduling changes that reduced vacation accruals and required more flying each month.

ALPA cautioned against agreeing to such changes at Northwest.

"While it may be relatively painless on an individual basis to give up a few days of vacation per year or work a few extra hours per month, the cumulative effect on staffing can be significant," ALPA said in its memo to Northwest pilots.

Work rule changes could delay recalls and increase furloughs. Currently, 881 pilots are on furloughs out of a population of about 6,200 pilots.

For example, altering the vacation accrual rate could save Northwest $46 million a year and reduce the workforce by 223 pilots, the union said.

Though Northwest pilots support two years of labor savings, the union proposal does not demand that wages "snap back" to pre-concession levels.

"We expect pilot pay rates at our key competitors to remain at or below those at Northwest well beyond the end of the proposed [two-year] agreement," the ALPA memo said. A "snap back" clause could harm Northwest's ability to refinance its debt and increase the "risk of a Chapter 11 [bankruptcy] filing."

But the pilots are calling their proposal an "investment agreement," because it does include provisions for future financial rewards such as airline stock.

"Northwest has very serious financial challenges," Kruse said. "We've seen where the rest of the industry has gone. We believe that we can do better for Northwest as a corporation and for the pilots by working out a mutually agreeable deal without dragging Northwest through the same kind of process that American, United and US Air have gone through."

The pilots union is the first work group to show its receptiveness to labor cost cuts. "We still firmly believe that all Northwest unions will have to participate in making Northwest competitive," Kruse said.

To date, the other unions have publicly opposed Northwest's call for concessions.

Northwest received the pilots' proposal April 28, and Kruse expects executives to formally respond to it before union leaders convene for a June 8 meeting.

In addition to reviewing the pilots' proposal, Kruse said, Northwest management is updating its business plan to include assumptions for higher fuel costs and pension law changes. Management is attempting to cut its annual labor costs by $950 million.

Liz Fedor is at

lfedor@startribune.com.
 
Busdrvr said:
WADR, you just confirmed your ignorance of the airline lifestyle. I've done both. FWIW, airline crews DON'T get paid to sleep,
Bus,
Your statement is totally false. Pilots get paid per diem from check in to the end of the trip. The per diem doesn't stop just because they're sitting in a hotel (or sleeping in one).



"WADR, you just confirmed your ignorance of the airline lifestyle."

Shouldn't this read......."busdrvr, you just confirmed............"
 
That per diem is a couple dollars an hour to pay for meals. It is hardly enough to pay for all meals out. I wish the airlines would let us eat and expense our meals (like they do in regular business), then we'd be able to go out for a decent meal instead of fast food (which is about how much money per diem is). Hey Borescope, do you know how much the per diem is per hour? Didn't think so! :lol:
 

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