Pilots must be on board for US AIRWAYS to get the Loan Guarnatee

sabre

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Aug 20, 2002
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If the company brutalizes the pilot pension, thereby abrogating the pilots contract (unless by some miracle the pilots get a new t/a that settles the matter), then the company will not be in a position with a 'finalized labor deal'.
The government only approved the updated business plan and conditioned it. One thing the government isn't doing is exposing itself to great loses if Buggsy can't get ALPA under contract.
love,
 

tug_slug

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 2/12/2003 1:45:41 PM sabre wrote:

If the company brutalizes the pilot pension, thereby abrogating the pilots contract (unless by some miracle the pilots get a new t/a that settles the matter), then the company will not be in a position with a 'finalized labor deal'.

The government only approved the updated business plan and conditioned it. One thing the government isn't doing is exposing itself to great loses if Buggsy can't get ALPA under contract.


love,
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[/blockquote]

If??
 

Pacemaker

Senior
Sep 3, 2002
475
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[blockquote]
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On 2/12/2003 3:22:46 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

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There isn't a chance in the netherworld that the pilots will agree to this. If their contract is changed, You WILL see a pilot strike. No doubt in my mind.
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[/blockquote]

Oldiebutgoody, I respectfully disagree. If you look beyond the rhetoric what evidence can you provide that this pilot group is willing to send this kind of message? How many pilots told us the day after management tries to kill the pension the airline will grind to a halt; has their been any appreciable reduction in our on-time performance or completion factor? Most pilots' lines of time are built around 78-80 hours; at the end of the month let's check and see how many lineholders voluntarily overflew up to and over 85 hours. Sure, let's get tough - as long as it's the other guy that takes the heat!

IMO this is a weak and self-centered group that is not willing to make a stand, even for this. There will be a lot of grumbling and threats and then they will take Dave's deal and it will continue to be business as usual. No strike.
 

oldiebutgoody

Veteran
Aug 23, 2002
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/12/2003 1:45:41 PM sabre wrote:

If the company brutalizes the pilot pension, thereby abrogating the pilots contract (unless by some miracle the pilots get a new t/a that settles the matter), then the company will not be in a position with a 'finalized labor deal'.

The government only approved the updated business plan and conditioned it. One thing the government isn't doing is exposing itself to great loses if Buggsy can't get ALPA under contract.


love,
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[/blockquote]
Looks like Mr. Siegel had better have another plan. There isn't a chance in the netherworld that the pilots will agree to this. If their contract is changed, You WILL see a pilot strike. No doubt in my mind.
 
OP
S

sabre

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
161
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[blockquote]
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On 2/12/2003 3:22:46 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:
Looks like Mr. Siegel had better have another plan. There isn't a chance in the netherworld that the pilots will agree to this. If their contract is changed, You WILL see a pilot strike. No doubt in my mind.
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[/blockquote]

Oldiebutgoody, there will not be a pilot strike because one is not needed. Although they may be free to wildcat or 'strike for a day' or long term, staying on the job will produce the same results. Without ALPA's signature, Buggsy will fall short of getting the ATSB money needed to commence the business plan and Buggsy will either have to stop dictating or liquidate and find another job where he won't be king.

Most likely scenerio is that the ALPA MEC keeps the rhetoric up but then signs a brave new 'bad'deal that gives the pilots a new pension. Even though pilots won't agree to it, the MEC will approve it and not allow a vote.
BTW, have you guys noticed all the pilot solidarity? I think these guys are ready to pop and anxious to resolve their labor deal. Wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some start doing their own thing like they did at AA or UA. We will find out as soon as the pension is terminated.


love,
 

oldiebutgoody

Veteran
Aug 23, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 2/12/2003 3:36:31 PM Pacemaker wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 2/12/2003 3:22:46 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

[blockquote]
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There isn't a chance in the netherworld that the pilots will agree to this. If their contract is changed, You WILL see a pilot strike. No doubt in my mind.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Oldiebutgoody, I respectfully disagree. If you look beyond the rhetoric what evidence can you provide that this pilot group is willing to send this kind of message? How many pilots told us the day after management tries to kill the pension the airline will grind to a halt; has their been any appreciable reduction in our on-time performance or completion factor? Most pilots' lines of time are built around 78-80 hours; at the end of the month let's check and see how many lineholders voluntarily overflew up to and over 85 hours. Sure, let's get tough - as long as it's the other guy that takes the heat!

IMO this is a weak and self-centered group that is not willing to make a stand, even for this. There will be a lot of grumbling and threats and then they will take Dave's deal and it will continue to be business as usual. No strike.

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[/blockquote]
I don't agree with your analysis, and here's why: This issue has turned into a referendum on labor and collective bargaining. U ALPA WILL NOT agree to this, the main reason being that it will send shockwaves throughout the airline industry, and shortly afterward throughout other industries as well. The MEC may not even have the authority to agree to this, since the contract was signed by ALPA National. I think that issues which affect the top seniority guys (I am NOT one of them) are taken VERY seriously at U, due to the age of the pilot group. This is a very serious issue, one that I hope gets the appropriate attention from all sides, especially the government, since they are likely to have many more retirement plans dumped in their laps really soon if U is allowed to do it. I am not even sure that the government will allow U to do it, and that is the only way it can happen. The next two weeks look to be really interesting. My other belief is that if this does happen, ALPA will allow U to come out of bankruptcy, then take some kind of "self help" action. Then, Mr. Bronner would have his "mammary" in the ringer with all the other creditors. My real hope is that the company and ALPA come up with some creative way to either continue the current system, or find one that is agreeable to both sides.
 

Retired1

Member
Aug 19, 2002
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Oldie I agree that the company might not be able to get rid of the plan as easily as they want to. The PBGC has not taken it over on their own which means it isnt distressed enough, and i doubt they would take kindly to companies just saying we dont want this kind of plan anymore. Too many companies would like to get rid of these plans and Washington could have a glut of them arrive all at once if they let U do it.
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,070
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There isnt gonna be a strike , PERIOD! I assure you the majority of alpa members are furious, but only a hand full are willing to strike or even discuss it. Its amazing how many people try and stir the pot but stir all you want, there wont be a strike. There will be alot of talking bashing and yelling but in the end it comes down to this simple formula. Stike no job no pension. Save it for another day reduced pension reduced pay secure job. Ist just that simple. Smart warriors no when to save their strength for a better time, and ion this case its a lose lose situation.There will be another day !
 

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
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On 2/12/2003 4:55:34 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 2/12/2003 3:36:31 PM Pacemaker wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/12/2003 3:22:46 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
There isn't a chance in the netherworld that the pilots will agree to this. If their contract is changed, You WILL see a pilot strike. No doubt in my mind.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Oldiebutgoody, I respectfully disagree. If you look beyond the rhetoric what evidence can you provide that this pilot group is willing to send this kind of message? How many pilots told us the day after management tries to kill the pension the airline will grind to a halt; has their been any appreciable reduction in our on-time performance or completion factor? Most pilots' lines of time are built around 78-80 hours; at the end of the month let's check and see how many lineholders voluntarily overflew up to and over 85 hours. Sure, let's get tough - as long as it's the other guy that takes the heat!

IMO this is a weak and self-centered group that is not willing to make a stand, even for this. There will be a lot of grumbling and threats and then they will take Dave's deal and it will continue to be business as usual. No strike.

----------------
[/blockquote]
I don't agree with your analysis, and here's why: This issue has turned into a referendum on labor and collective bargaining. U ALPA WILL NOT agree to this, the main reason being that it will send shockwaves throughout the airline industry, and shortly afterward throughout other industries as well. The MEC may not even have the authority to agree to this, since the contract was signed by ALPA National. I think that issues which affect the top seniority guys (I am NOT one of them) are taken VERY seriously at U, due to the age of the pilot group. This is a very serious issue, one that I hope gets the appropriate attention from all sides, especially the government, since they are likely to have many more retirement plans dumped in their laps really soon if U is allowed to do it. I am not even sure that the government will allow U to do it, and that is the only way it can happen. The next two weeks look to be really interesting. My other belief is that if this does happen, ALPA will allow U to come out of bankruptcy, then take some kind of "self help" action. Then, Mr. Bronner would have his "mammary" in the ringer with all the other creditors. My real hope is that the company and ALPA come up with some creative way to either continue the current system, or find one that is agreeable to both sides.
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[/blockquote]
Oldie,


I think you make some valid points that can't be argued.

The ripple effect this will have in our industry and others is why I believe it is in everyones (Gov. especially)best interest to settle this pilot pension issue.

I hope the pilots continue to show strong solidarity, and we all need to join them in supporting their endeavor for equitable resolution.

Retired 1,

I think now everyone has caught on to what the "domino theory" is all about.
 

oldiebutgoody

Veteran
Aug 23, 2002
2,627
945
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/12/2003 6:46:06 PM usfliboi wrote:

There isnt gonna be a strike , PERIOD! I assure you the majority of alpa members are furious, but only a hand full are willing to strike or even discuss it. Its amazing how many people try and stir the pot but stir all you want, there wont be a strike. There will be alot of talking bashing and yelling but in the end it comes down to this simple formula. Stike no job no pension. Save it for another day reduced pension reduced pay secure job. Ist just that simple. Smart warriors no when to save their strength for a better time, and ion this case its a lose lose situation.There will be another day !





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[/blockquote]
You might be able to get odds in vegas, but I sure wouldn't bet that it'll happen that way! There may not be a strike before U leaves chapter 11, but it could happen shortly thereafter.
 

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