Yeah, and just because you have an MBA does not mean you are qualified to run an airline.Mach85ER said:
Pilots On Furlough
- Thread starter linevans50
- Start date
Pilots days of being fat, dumb and happy are over. Company needs to go after reserve, holding FC seats for rest, bistro vs. full meals in the cockpit, self-issued A3 travel (you know it is abused), VC overlap with trip, time between promotion, etc.
The company already did some of these things with the latest contract:
*Reserves are now available 19 days per month instead of 18, also, the old simple proffer/pass system has been done away with for a system based on low GTD, which levels out the flying among reserves in a bid status and prevents senior pilots from passing excessively and prevents junior pilots from being timed out before the end of the month.
*Under the old contract, pilots received 2 adjoining F or J seats for rest, today, the company can sell that extra seat or give it to an AAdvantage member as an upgrade for miles (the pilots still gets the adjoining seat if the cabin is not full).
*VC overlapping with trips has been rectified by going to a 3:15 per day vacation bank system. Pilots can game the system such that VC overlaps with trips, but if they do, they eventually run out of VC bank time and simply go unpaid and uncredited.
*Time between promotion was addressed as well - the lockin on a certain type of equipment used to be 12 months, now it is 24 months.
There were a myriad of other work-rule changes and tweaks as well, plus pilots took a 23% paycut (granted that they got 9.4% of it back on 5/1/04 - still, pilots are about 15.8% short of where they were). So, I think most pilots realize that there has been a fundamental change in this business, and as such, that they need to have a fundamental change in their compensation expectations. Being a pilot for a major airline is still a very well-paying (in fact, borderline lucrative) career, just not as much as it was before.
"There were a myriad of other work-rule changes and tweaks as well, plus pilots took a 23% paycut (granted that they got 9.4% of it back on 5/1/04 - still, pilots are about 15.8% short of where they were)"
LaBradford22
Many pilots took far more than a 23% cut. It was only 23% if a person stayed in their current seat and equipment. I know of many including myself that took a 49% paycut, around a $70,000 annual loss, even after the May pay reinstatement.
Johnny Utah
I get a kick watching armchair crew planners/schedulers/crew rest experts like yourself.
Company needs to go after reserve
Most of my career, the AA reserve staffing has been overmanned. More than a few village idiots, including many of our own lineholding pilots, think that this is a result of featherbedding by the APA. The fact is that AA has had 10 or more aircraft and divisions, as many as 80 aircraft a year being delivered or cut at various times, coupled with marketing shifting ac around the bases. These factors drive the manning reserves through the roof. Even with the old reserve sytem, most guys flew alot if the base flying was stable.
"holding FC seats for rest"
Another piss poor managment job. Adequate rest facilities weren't thought of when they bought the fleet. They actually paid extra to remove the pilot bunks of the B777 leaving an unusable closet. Having a FC seat is a safety issue. On the 767, it's tough to get any rest even with the seat next to you empty. I've been lucky, but know guys if have been awake all break from an elbow jabbing or coughing seatmate.
"bistro vs. full meals in the cockpit"
I doubt in your job you pulled a 14 hour day on 1 mini bowl of cornflakes and a mini-bistro ham sandwich. Personally, my first choice is to eat off the airplane. After several consecutive long days, bag eating will add to fatigue and jeopardize safety. I have and will delay a flight in order to get something barely acceptable as a meal.
"self-issued A3 travel (you know it is abused)"
Never heard of this one nor would I try it. It's for training travel only. Even on trips we call crew sched for A-travel listing. I guess some single guy can blast off on his 48 hours off from training to ski in steamboat legally if he wants, but most just go home. It also saves AA $$ from having to pay someone to list us. I do remember one flagrant A-pass abuse case. A UAL FA commuter sitting in FC on our AA flight, while a 30 year MD11 Captain was crammed in his D2 jumpseat. she was married to an AA base manager and commuting to UAL on his positive space A passes. :down:
VC overlap with trip
That's gone, but go ahead and repeat it for the next 20 years anyway <_<
LaBradford22
Many pilots took far more than a 23% cut. It was only 23% if a person stayed in their current seat and equipment. I know of many including myself that took a 49% paycut, around a $70,000 annual loss, even after the May pay reinstatement.
Johnny Utah
I get a kick watching armchair crew planners/schedulers/crew rest experts like yourself.
Company needs to go after reserve
Most of my career, the AA reserve staffing has been overmanned. More than a few village idiots, including many of our own lineholding pilots, think that this is a result of featherbedding by the APA. The fact is that AA has had 10 or more aircraft and divisions, as many as 80 aircraft a year being delivered or cut at various times, coupled with marketing shifting ac around the bases. These factors drive the manning reserves through the roof. Even with the old reserve sytem, most guys flew alot if the base flying was stable.
"holding FC seats for rest"
Another piss poor managment job. Adequate rest facilities weren't thought of when they bought the fleet. They actually paid extra to remove the pilot bunks of the B777 leaving an unusable closet. Having a FC seat is a safety issue. On the 767, it's tough to get any rest even with the seat next to you empty. I've been lucky, but know guys if have been awake all break from an elbow jabbing or coughing seatmate.
"bistro vs. full meals in the cockpit"
I doubt in your job you pulled a 14 hour day on 1 mini bowl of cornflakes and a mini-bistro ham sandwich. Personally, my first choice is to eat off the airplane. After several consecutive long days, bag eating will add to fatigue and jeopardize safety. I have and will delay a flight in order to get something barely acceptable as a meal.
"self-issued A3 travel (you know it is abused)"
Never heard of this one nor would I try it. It's for training travel only. Even on trips we call crew sched for A-travel listing. I guess some single guy can blast off on his 48 hours off from training to ski in steamboat legally if he wants, but most just go home. It also saves AA $$ from having to pay someone to list us. I do remember one flagrant A-pass abuse case. A UAL FA commuter sitting in FC on our AA flight, while a 30 year MD11 Captain was crammed in his D2 jumpseat. she was married to an AA base manager and commuting to UAL on his positive space A passes. :down:
VC overlap with trip
That's gone, but go ahead and repeat it for the next 20 years anyway <_<
Did AA really remove the bunks in the forward pilot rest area on all the 777s? That is stupid. A flat bunk is better than a First Class seat out in the cabin.Mach85ER said:
If deadheading, maybe. However, the discussion was directed toward the lack of rest facilities for working cockpit crew members on long-haul flights. AA has very little domestic 777 service. Mostly DFW-ORD, DFW-MIA, and DFW-LAX to get the plane to one of those bases for an International flight. Me? I want a well-rested, alert, perky, and happy cockpit whether I'm a cabin crew member or a passenger.Johnny Utah said:
A deadheading crew member gets a F/C seat ONLY when it would otherwise go empty whether he/she is cockpit or cabin crew--at least, that's the way it is at AA.
"Did AA really remove the bunks in the forward pilot rest area on all the 777s?"
FWAAA
On the Pacific planes they were left in (pilot bunks).I think it is a contract issue on over 12 hour flights. The Atlantic config planes were delivered without the bunks. The room is still there with intercom, carpet, door and lights, just no bunks. It is just an empty space unusable for even a closet. They really are nice, quiet and secure. Without them, any pilot rest in FC is dependent how quiet the service and pax are. Generally it is impossible to get any rest on the first break with the dinner service.
"If coach is good enough for the passengers it is good enough for the crew. Even deadheading. "
Johnny Utah,
Pilot crew rest and deadheading are two different things. 90% of my deadheads (non-flying) are done in coach. An adequate seat for the flying pilots is a safety issue, the coach seat is unacceptable and I have never been able to sleep in one, including alnight DH's from Brazil. The pilots should also be in the front cabin for safety and security reasons. From my flying experience, I wouldn't want to be riding in a plane where the pilots had zero rest in a coach seat, then had to deal with a combination of holding/weather/diversions along with mechanical issues.
FWAAA
On the Pacific planes they were left in (pilot bunks).I think it is a contract issue on over 12 hour flights. The Atlantic config planes were delivered without the bunks. The room is still there with intercom, carpet, door and lights, just no bunks. It is just an empty space unusable for even a closet. They really are nice, quiet and secure. Without them, any pilot rest in FC is dependent how quiet the service and pax are. Generally it is impossible to get any rest on the first break with the dinner service.
"If coach is good enough for the passengers it is good enough for the crew. Even deadheading. "
Johnny Utah,
Pilot crew rest and deadheading are two different things. 90% of my deadheads (non-flying) are done in coach. An adequate seat for the flying pilots is a safety issue, the coach seat is unacceptable and I have never been able to sleep in one, including alnight DH's from Brazil. The pilots should also be in the front cabin for safety and security reasons. From my flying experience, I wouldn't want to be riding in a plane where the pilots had zero rest in a coach seat, then had to deal with a combination of holding/weather/diversions along with mechanical issues.
If safety and security was the issue than FA would sit up front as well. You provide no more security than a paying passenger when you are outside the cockpit. I say you can have to first row in coach.
"You provide no more security than a paying passenger when you are outside the cockpit."
Ok. tell your mommy you're playing on chatboards again.
"I say you can have to first row in coach. "
Ok, sure. thanks for the input.
Ok. tell your mommy you're playing on chatboards again.
"I say you can have to first row in coach. "
Ok, sure. thanks for the input.
Do not mean to stir the pot, but if you are sleeping...... what good are you for?....... don't tell me it's for security and cabin safety. Think about it.
Actually, lots of people do it, its called a full day of work. The idea that bag eating jeopardizes safety is just laughable. I bet those chicken tenders and fries you have in the Chili's at DFW just load you up with energy and awareness. Maybe instead taking a delay just so you can show everyone who the boss is, you could bring a snack along like the rest of the working world.
The ignorance on this thread about crew rest is laughable if it wasn't such a serious matter.I want my flight crew rested just like I wouldn't want open heart surgery by a doctor that had already been on duty for 12 hours.
Read accident reports related to crashes and you will see that pilot fatigue is one the culprits when pilot error is cited.
This was one of MANY factors in the Little Rock MD80 crash that contributed to the decisions made by the captain.
Any individual in any profession will not be as productive or make the best decisions if they are tired.
On long haul flights I'm all for crew rest in a designated area where they can actually get some rest.-----AA mech
Read accident reports related to crashes and you will see that pilot fatigue is one the culprits when pilot error is cited.
This was one of MANY factors in the Little Rock MD80 crash that contributed to the decisions made by the captain.
Any individual in any profession will not be as productive or make the best decisions if they are tired.
On long haul flights I'm all for crew rest in a designated area where they can actually get some rest.-----AA mech
Oy.
Look, folks, the issue here is about long-haul flying. On such flights, there are two crews. One crew flies the first set of hours, and the other crew the second. Thus, typically, one crew handles takeoff and the other landing.
In case you're not aware, landing is the more difficult of the two.
If you are going to have a crew land your airplane, would you prefer one that has been awake for 22 hours, or one that has only been awake for six? Personally, I prefer the six-hour crew.
In answer to your comment about FAs, yes, they should be well-rested too. Same issue...landing's the more difficult, and I sure want rested FAs there for when all hell breaks loose.
Deadheading is a completely different animal.
Look, folks, the issue here is about long-haul flying. On such flights, there are two crews. One crew flies the first set of hours, and the other crew the second. Thus, typically, one crew handles takeoff and the other landing.
In case you're not aware, landing is the more difficult of the two.
If you are going to have a crew land your airplane, would you prefer one that has been awake for 22 hours, or one that has only been awake for six? Personally, I prefer the six-hour crew.
In answer to your comment about FAs, yes, they should be well-rested too. Same issue...landing's the more difficult, and I sure want rested FAs there for when all hell breaks loose.
Deadheading is a completely different animal.
Most of the rest of the working world spent last night at home, and could throw together something from their kitchens or stop at the Piggly Wiggly on their way to their cubicles.Oneflyer said:
Most flight crews, OTOH, spent the previous night in a hotel room near the airport with no easy way to get food to bring with them, and have no transportation to go shopping. And it is hard to pack three or four days worth of food and shove it in your bag with everything else for a three or four day trip.
