PIT vs CLE - sorry another PIT topic

[CynicalResAgent]

Cleveland😛opulation Profile
Metropolitan Area Residents

1990: 2,202,069

2000: 2,250,871

Pittsburgh: Population Profile

Metropolitan Area Residents

1990: 2,394,811

2000: 2,358,695

Sorry I could not find any more recent extimates since census is done every ten years. As you can see PIT and CLE are roughly the same size for Metro areas, Actually in 2000 PIT was larger by 100k.

See the link below to CO expansion plans for CLE

Link to story

Evidently CLE has the O/D to be expanded as a midwestern hub. Now, I know there are gonna be people who are gonna say PIT is dead and to let it go but I say these cities are similar sizes and PIT does not have another airport (CAK) right down the road that almost acts as a second airport for the same city.

 

[CynicalResAgent]

Also from CO website

 

[EMBFA]

OK, please send all of this info to every operating airline in the United States. Surely you've discovered something they've missed and they will throw down a boomer of a major, global, international gateway hub right there in Pittburgh.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

OK, please send all of this info to every operating airline in the United States. Surely you've discovered something they've missed and they will throw down a boomer of a major, global, international gateway hub right there in Pittburgh.

What a well thought out reply by EMBFA.

I don't think the point was to establish PIT as a major global international gateway hub. Rather it was to point out that
1) CLE and PIT are similar size cities population wise. It would be nice to show economic data for the two cities also (disposable income?).
2) CO, a better managed airline is growing CLE as a hub
3) US, a worse managed airline is (has) abandoned PIT as a hub

Ofcourse even though PIT is a superior facility compared to CLE, I don't think there currently is any airline (legacy or LCC) that will make PIT a hub again. It seems that most legacies already have their CLE (AA=STL, DL=CVG & SLC, NW=MEM) and US seems to be currently clueless as how to profitably operate PIT. Unfortunately with ~2 million people living in the PIT area I don't think any LCC will make PIT a hub either, and with no code-share partner with significant ops in PIT I don't see foreign airlines rushing to start service.

 

[leprechaun]

OK, please send all of this info to every operating airline in the United States. Surely you've discovered something they've missed and they will throw down a boomer of a major, global, international gateway hub right there in Pittburgh.

I got a good laugh :bleh:

 

[JS]

It's because CO doesn't have to deal with WN trashing fares in CLE like US does in PIT. Oh wait...

 

[Coffee_Tea_Or_Me]

It's because CO doesn't have to deal with WN trashing fares in CLE like US does in PIT. Oh wait...

True -- CO is very fortunate in that regard. WN stays away from CO -- no EWR, no IAH, no CLE....

 

[PHX PHLyer]

Did some quick research because you make a valid point....but population can obviously not be the only measure here.

Cleveland
-CLE in 2006 had O&D of 76% of its total traffic.
-Metropolitan Statistical Area had a wealth level of 111% of the state (Ohio) and 103% of the nation.
-O&D passengers have increased 16% since 2001

Pittsburgh
-At the height of US operations (2000) at PIT, 60% of passengers were connecting. (compared to 24% in CLE)
-Since the height of operations, O&D traffic has increased about 3-4% (Compared to 16% in CLE)
-MSA wealth is less than the state (Pennsylvania) and the national average (Compared to higher CLE numbers)


This isn't the whole story but can certainly give you an idea as to why CLE is ripe for expansion while PIT is not. Besides, CO has literally something like 45 mainline flights a day out of CLE. That is only slightly more than PIT has today (think PIT has something like 35 right now and a little bit more during the summer). CLE is an RJ fortress.....there are about 190 or so express flights a day (all on planes with 50 seats or less.....US has E170s, etc)....I think PIT still has around 100 Express flights a day....if anything....I would say that CLE should be called a secondary hub for CO....but they want to act like it is more significant than it is and says that it is a hub.

 

[JS]

True -- CO is very fortunate in that regard. WN stays away from CO -- no EWR, no IAH, no CLE....

I was joking (the "oh wait..." part). Southwest does fly to CLE, and has been flying there longer than PIT. Southwest also flies out of HOU, same city as IAH, and I think HOU is the largest WN station.

The difference is that CO doesn't cut and run away from Southwest like US does.

 

[Travelpro72]

I was joking (the "oh wait..." part). Southwest does fly to CLE, and has been flying there longer than PIT. Southwest also flies out of HOU, same city as IAH, and I think HOU is the largest WN station.

The difference is that CO doesn't cut and run away from Southwest like US does.

Exactly. Usairways can't even hold their on on the PIT-PHL run. It kills me when you have these folks that say PIT is dead and PIT can't work. This company has been badly managed for years and NOW has THE WORST management we have ever had. The majority feel they can do no right in any area EXCEPT when it comes to PIT. Put your issues with the city, the people, the sports, the food etc aside and SEE that the place could be a sort of relief airport to PHL if they applied themselves. The company has lied about numbers and the reasons for the failure that is now Usairways operations in PIT. As for support, the numbers and trend proves that the people and money are there. They simply are NOT willing to fly to PHL and experience Sh!tty service so now connect since thats the norm on any other carrier. No airline is going to set up shop there for the SIMPLE fact that all (legacy and TRUE LCC'S) are pretty much set up in their hubs/focus cities already. Other carriers HAVE and CONTINUE to add service slowly. Between that and the fact that folks are flying in record numbers PROVES that Usairways blows and has NO ability to run an airline. Yeah PHL is the big money maker but look around at your money maker and the state of the airline as it continues to crumble all around us. Keep putting all your eggs in one basket US Americawestways and see where you are in a few years. 🙄 Can't even hold your own on PIT-AVP which was pretty much ALL O&D and FULL ! ! !

 

[Coffee_Tea_Or_Me]

I was joking (the "oh wait..." part). Southwest does fly to CLE, and has been flying there longer than PIT. Southwest also flies out of HOU, same city as IAH, and I think HOU is the largest WN station.

The difference is that CO doesn't cut and run away from Southwest like US does.

Ahhhhh, thanks for the clarification. I knew HOU was a large SW operator, but CO still dominates any and all IAH traffic. And, EWR -- fuhgeddaboudit. 🙂

 

[PHX PHLyer]

Southwest also flies out of HOU, same city as IAH, and I think HOU is the largest WN station.

Southwest does fly out of HOU...and it is a big operation....but it is the 5th largest station in the WN system. Behind #1 LAS, #2 MDW, #3 PHX, #4 BWI. So as you say, US can't hold their own against WN in PIT....but they can in PHX and LAS....so maybe that says something about the local market in PIT more than it does about the airline.

Andthe HOU operation is not really on the same scope as the PHX and LAS operations. HOU has over 30 flights a day to Dallas Love, and a ton more a day to SAT, AUS, etc. The majority of HOU operations are within Texas....so CO doesn't have to compete as much against in other markets where WN either doesn't fly or has limited frequency.

You were trying to be facetious about WN not being in IAH and CLE, but the fact of the matter is is that it is not to the same degree that US faces from them in other key markets.

Exactly. Usairways can't even hold their on on the PIT-PHL run.

Actually, the latest consumer air fare report shows that US had 56.1% of the local O&D market between PIT and PHL at $119 average per ticket, while WN had 41.65% of the PIT-PHL local O&D market at $87 average per ticket.

15% more passengers at $30 more per passenger.....not exactly getting the market handed to them by WN.

 

[Travelpro72]

That's STILL a pretty big chunk for WN considering your flying to THE "Crown Jewel". I'd say that US is sustaining itself rather than holding their own. If this were another airline like AA or NW you'd hear "don't even THINK about competing against them or you'll get squashed". NOBODY as in ANY AIRLINE is afraid of US or what they can bring in terms of competition. Even in PHX US has held their own or sustained itself to a degree against WN. Look at the PHX to LAS market where it's hub to Hub for "US". What percent does WN have there?

 

[CynicalResAgent]

not as funny as you usually are EMBFA. -_-

My point was to make a compariosn between two cities that should be able to provide the same O/D traffic. I guess it's a management thing though.

Hmmmmm. Let's see CO still has meals and provides decent service to their customers and receives accolades from the travel industry. I guess they can manage to grow CLE while US can't seem to make PIT work. Meanwhile US grinds customers through the love machine they call philly, let's see how long that lasts till you run out of customers to subject the poor service too.

Did you see that they plan to add service to CDG from CLE. So it's not all RJ growth, they're also growing their west coast flights in phases.

 

[PHX PHLyer]

That's STILL a pretty big chunk for WN considering your flying to THE "Crown Jewel". I'd say that US is sustaining itself rather than holding their own. If this were another airline like AA or NW you'd hear "don't even THINK about competing against them or you'll get squashed". NOBODY as in ANY AIRLINE is afraid of US or what they can bring in terms of competition. Even in PHX US has held their own or sustained itself to a degree against WN. Look at the PHX to LAS market where it's hub to Hub for "US". What percent does WN have there?

WN has about 76% of the local traffic between PHX and LAS. But while it is hub to hub for US, it basically is too for WN. That is WN flying from its number 1 city to its number 3 city. US is flying from its number 3 hub to its number 5 hub. And WN must be getting some pressure from US, because PHX-LAS is one of the markets getting a cut in the number of flights per day during the October-November reshuffling of flights. There was obviously overcapacity in the market and it is a good thing that US doesn't attempt to have more market share in a tough/low yielding market (plus US has something like 13-14 flights per day anyway...meaning that they cover any time that a person would want to fly anyway). US must be giving some pressure to WN because they announced permanent cuts in service in markets like PHL-LAX, OAK, PVD and PHX-BWI, LAS, LAX, CLE, DTW, PVD, RDU effective in October or November.

During BK 1 & 2 and even before, WN obviously targeted US by moving into BWI, PIT, PHL, etc. But now I think they realize that the new US can hold its own and is not going away so they are targeting UA. They have gone into IAD, SFO, and DEN since they gave up on challenging US.