Price Of Gas

[BaldEagle]

I am also relly but in a very different way.

European prices average $1.5 per litter (75% tax level) and nobody protests because they know they are dealing with a scarce and finite resource.

Thats why while I was in Europe for many years, my cars had Diesel engines and only recently I got a very good one with a gasoline engine that I immediatly converted to Liquified Natural Gas before starting using it. I never had a car with a gasoline engine in my life.

Also it must be discouraged the size of engines used in North America. I never had a car above 2.000 cc's and went everywhere and did everything I needed to. Here nobody can make it with less then 4 or 5 liters some even 7, the size of engines that in Europe is used for fishing boats !!!

There are engines in Europe as eficient as 87 MPG in the Highway (AUDI A2) !!! and in North America not even close to HALF of that number. WHY ? One of the answers might well be because fuel is too cheap.

The contrast in diesel usage between the U.S. and Europe is stark: In Europe - one of every three new cars sold today is powered by clean diesel technology and in the premium and luxury categories, over 70 percent are clean diesels. But in the US - light-duty diesels account for only about 0.26 percent of all new cars sold, with only slightly higher figures in the light-duty truck markets.

"What we've found is that the Europeans are able to reap the rewards of clean diesel technology --- efficiency and environmental benefits-while the US has mostly regulatory roadblocks," said Schaeffer. "It's completely understandable why clean diesel technology has such a high acceptance in Europe--- the engines provide more power, are more fuel efficient, are more durable, are extremely responsive with low-end torque, and have 30-60 percent lower greenhouse gas emissions."

Diesel Technology Forum

Demand for Diesels: The European Experience


Looking at today's car engines, it just shows that the price of gas is still VERY CHEAP, way too cheap.
I vote for $2 dollars per liter to see if the squandering of a scarce resource ends and a more responsible use of fuel starts. :rant: :rant:
Some of the extra cash to be spent financing the devolopment of fuel eficient Diesel engines for cars and aviation purposes.

Price "fixing" for agricultural, fishing and aviation needs, something different as the Europeans do with their "green diesel" for agriculture and "bunkers" fuel for fishing and aviation. (they consider aviation and fishing fuel "offshore use" so no taxes and the price is the international bunker's price).

It looks to me like the way to go

 

[MagSeal]

I say take your piddly little sewing machine motor and drown it in diesel.

I like my big giant V8 and will floor it every chance I get.

I will beg to differ on gas being a scarce commodity, ask anyone in the exploration world, there is so much unexplored area out there. Deep water areas being one of them. The reason gas is so expensive is because of OPEC, they control the price just for financial gain of their partners. If the profits are down, cut back production, and you've artificially created the low supply. Now it comes down to you want it...pay for it.

 

[Rosco]

Gotta agree with Mag on this one. 😱

I might be off a little here, but I recall hearing at one time that there is more oil in the sands of N. Alberta than there is in the ground in Saudi.

As Mag says...OPEC controls the goings on. No reason why the Big 3 cant make an engine that gets 80 mi/gal. The technology is there and has been for a while.

Imagine what that would do to OPEC and it's partners...in essence you'd halve consumption and halve the $$$$$ not to mention cutting into the gov's $$$$$

Cheers

R

 

[BaldEagle]

I say take your piddly little sewing machine motor and drown it in diesel.
I like my big giant V8 and will floor it every chance I get.
I will beg to differ on gas being a scarce commodity, ask anyone in the exploration world, there is so much unexplored area out there. Deep water areas being one of them.

Well you will not go any faster nor any further nor anywere where I can also go with a sewing machine engine.
However I go a lot cheaper, saving lots of gasoline and poluting a lot less then you with my in line 4 cylinder 2L car.
In Europe speed limits are a lot highter and the engines a lot smaller, wich means that we go everywhere a lot faster and a lot cheaper then you with your V8. 😀 😀 😀
You know in Germany we simply don't have speed limits in the "autobahnen". You can go at 250 Kms per hours and nobody will tell you that you can't 😱

I may not be able to tow as much as you can with your V8 and that is all.

In Europe they know about your taste for big engines with extremely reduced speed limits... (almost ridicule speed limits).
VolksWagen Touareg is coming up with a Diesel version with a 5.0L V10, 310 horsepower, 10 cylinder, 2V, 90°, diesel, but for the American market

Regardless of how much oil there is in Alberta oil sands, its a scarce and finite resource. For the first time since its incorporation almost a century ago, SHELL oil company reported a decrease in reserves, wich means they are pumping more then they are discovering something they think irreversible. BP same stuff.
All the oil that exists is the oil that will have to last for future generations. Nobody is making any of it anymore.

Oil production levels will hit their maximum soon after 2010 with gas supplies peaking not long afterwards, the Swedish geologists say.

At that point prices for petrol and other fuels will reach disastrous levels.

"The thing we are surprised of is that people in general are not aware of the decline in supplies and the extent to which it will affect production.
"The decline of oil and gas will affect the world population more than climate change."

CNN - Oil and Gas "running out"

Is the world running out of crude oil? Of course - because oil is a finite resource that is being consumed at high and increasing rates. A more relevant issue is when world conventional oil production will peak. There is much disagreement on that score, due to differences about how much oil is in the ground and many other factors that determine oil supply. Some analysts have argued that the production peak will occur within 5 years. The Energy Information Administration, on the other hand, currently projects rising production through at least 2021. Long-Term World Oil Supply: A Resource Base/Production Path Analysis examines some of the assumptions and methodologies behind various estimates in order to account for the wide range.

Power Plug

Future Oil Supply

Of course you can make like the Ostrich and stick to your gas guzlling V8, in the belief that the ostrich when pursued hides its head in the sand and believes itself to be unseen: one who attempts to avoid danger or difficulty by refusing to face it but you will not avoid it for sure!

 

[helidude]

The real question is why haven't my Ballard shares skyrocketed if there is such a shortage of oil????

 

[BaldEagle]

The real question is why haven't my Ballard shares skyrocketed if there is such a shortage of oil????

Because fuel cells and hybrids are simply NOT the solution and also because a lot of people is just ignoring the problem.
Like President Bush put it, to spend a lot of energy is just the American way of life and wanted to drill of the cost off California and in the Alaska wildlife refuge instead of legislating. :down: And when he finaly did, Congress killed the Bill because it was not realistic. (and they were right)
When someone DON'T want something but don't want the political costs of that decision, one way is to aim so high that others with more sense are forced to kill the initiative and take the blame for it... smart guys 🙄

Now is time for new legislation and highter taxes on all fossil fuels and enforcing new engine standards to slow down consumption. In some countries cars are taxed acordingly to engine size with the bigger ones paying 100% tax and, in some cases, even more (Danmark)

A lot of people is talking about fuel cells because they don't want to talk about real fuel consumption reduction...

BTW want a tip ? Sell the Ballard shares while they still worth something because they can't go anywhere but down 😛

 

[skullcap]

Baldeagle;

I understand your points and agree with the need to reduce pollution, perhaps you need to lobby the politicians and car manufactures with the same conviction rather than the consumers who on the most part do not have the choices of small high powered autos that you do. Nor do you have the need to haul a few 45 gal drums of jet fuel in the back of your ford focus, or pound down a siesmic line in winter pulling a trailer to your drill ship with a bmw. We deal with long distances on crappy roads, it is not really a big deal to drive 1-2 hours to get to work in the morning down gravel(mud) roads.

Also do you know it takes more out a barrell of oil to produce a gallon of diesel fuel than gasoline? It is just cheaper to refine the diesel fuel. Although the diesel does produce less pollutants.

My dodge hemi produces 340 hp and get 23 mpg, not too bad, and would look quite seriously at a 1/2 ton p/u that produced 200 hp and got 37 mpg but alas it doesn't exist.

I think the folks are upset that the fuel is produced here, cheaply and the price does not reflect the location or cost of producing the fuel but as mentioned "fixed" by outside sources, just as I don't like it that there are no oil wells near TO yet the price is roughly the same as Calgary. Or that Vancouverites pay nearly the same a FT St Johnites yet a short boat trip away the Vancouver Islanders are ripped off.
Kind of a Canadian problem not a worldwide thing.

Keep up the fight, I saw turbodiesel Nissan 4 x 4's in SA 9 years ago, too bad they wouldn't make them here.

sc

 

[graunch1]

It's all about oil reserves, both discovered and undiscovered.

In Canada, the Mackenzie Delta and Beaufort Sea have the potential to be one of the world's largest reserves of petroleum and natural gas. The problem is cost. When I worked for Dome Petroleum in the 80s they were spending $1 billion a season in the Beaufort drilling on leases that they knew had a low probability of containing an "Elephant". The reason being was they were using other people's money - the Japanese in particular. The good quality areas were being left along until the opportune moment.
Natural Gas is everywhere up there and Dome even had a design for ice-breaking LNG tankers on the books. After all they even bought shipyards on both coasts to add to their 57 ship operation. CEO Jack Gallager said that his biggest fear was there wasn't enough steel mills in Canada to supply him with all the steel we would need. Great times indeed. The cost to exploit the products was put at $55 per barrell in 1980 $$$ but oil prices werre expected to hit $100 by 1985.

Unfortunately, the world oil price dropped to $9 and Dome could not sustain it's $6+ billion debt and the rest as they say is history.
The morale of the story---- the oil is there when the price is right.

BTW. It was kind of neat going to my first meeting after being with the company for a week to be told by the President that the company had just announced a $650 million profit for the previous quarter. B)

Anyone who has worked offshore with the oil companies know that big $$$ are involved. Makes aviation look pretty puny alongside when the total cost of Dome's fleet of 2xB737s,3X Citatons IIs, 1X GII,2X KingAirs,1x DHC6,2XS76A,1XS61N,1XBO105 only equalled out to a few days drilling cost.

 

[BaldEagle]

skullcap

I understand your points and agree with the need to reduce pollution

Not only that. The most important part is to reduce consumption. North America could do exactly the same with 50% of the oil it consumes in transportation. The other 50% is pure waste.

consumers who on the most part do not have the choices of small high powered autos that you do

With the exception of Citroen cars, all other brands are available in the North American market. More then that VOLVO, LAND ROVER and SAAB are now owned by FORD Motor Company so they have access to the same technology we do. Volvo now has a 5 cylinder Diesel engine that is simply fabulous (to compete with the first 5 cylinder from Daimler Benz for its Mercedes Benz, also a fantastic engine). It costed more to develop then most of the cars they sell.

My dodge hemi produces 340 hp and get 23 mpg, not too bad,

The problem is the consumers. When they think about POWER they think HORSE POWER (HP) and that is wrong. They should think in terms of TORQUE and how much is really needed.
You don't need 340 HP for absolutely NOTHING with exception of towing heavy loads in trailers. That power is just there to brag about how much you have at your disposal, nothing else. Its a marketing ploy from the manufacturers to satisfy their client's ego. :angry:

A 200 HP Land Rover can go everywhere you go in the same amount of time regardless of the type of the road, with half the amount of fuel, because it can deliver the same amount of TORQUE that your Dodge can. This is achieved with a correct gearbox well adapted to your needs, specially true in North America with those extremely reduced speed limits.

BTW automatic gearboxes are also responsible for a 10 to 20% waste in fuel. We almost don't have them here just for that reason. If one wants a car with automatic gear box must fill a special order request 😀

and would look quite seriously at a 1/2 ton p/u that produced 200 hp and got 37 mpg but alas it doesn't exist.

No ?. I am not so sure. We don't have here many pick ups with SUV configuration because that is almost an exclusive thing of the NA market. But I will have a look and will let you know. Many moons ago in Africa I had a TOYOTA Land Cruiser pick up (SUV configuration) with a Diesel engine with better then that mileage.

graunch 1

It's all about oil reserves, both discovered and undiscovered

There is an absolutely defined END in what you can discover. We might not know its exact number but we all know that it exists. This should be enough to be very careful, very pragmatic and not to WASTE today what the next generation might desperately need. :wacko: Please take note that I am not saying not to spend but not to waste. B)

 

[skullcap]

What I need is a vehicle that will pull a heavy trailer, or pack 3 drums legally. Yes torque does mean you can get by with less hp given the proper gearbox, that is why the diesel pu's have 5 -6 speed automatics. Also why the manual trannys give so much grief, handling the extra power must be done carefully and when it doesn't happen then the drivetrain suffers. Try using your landrover to lug around 18000 pound max all up weight between truck and trailer like a F450 diesel does at 110 kmhr through the foothills of the rockies and poor roads of northern BC & AB.

Do we really NEED to do this? No but then do we NEED to fly, probably not either.

Plus your friggin landrover is way overpriced and there are not many landrover dealers in rubberboot nowhere to have it fixed. What is the price of the toyota landrover compared to a chevy tahoe where you live?

sc

 

[Rosco]

Scullcap's hit the nail on the head.

You can compare TQ & HP all you want but there is also the legalities involved such as GVW and GVW combinations. A trailer such as the one Scully mentions would be suicidal hooked behind a land rover or toyota suv pick up or whatever it is. It'd never hold the weight back even though it might pull it.

Getting it moving is one thing....stopping it is a total other thing.

Check the tag inside the drivers door of your landrover and compare the numbers to that of scullies Ford and you'll find quite a difference.

The argument over Europe and North America is like comparing apples to oranges when it comes to vehicles.

Cheers

R

 

[MagSeal]

Bald Eagle, thats the most quoting I have ever seen since our friend #### graced these pages.

As for power/dollar comparisons, here's a few that you might want to strap to a big honkin trailer and tow it thru the mountains. (Cyclic Monkey, if you're out there could you photoshop a roof rack and bush bars on the mustang...I'm curious if it'll have Land Rover looks or not.)

http://autos.en.msn.ca/advice/windowshop.a...=home&pos=Edit4

I bet you could buy a dozen of those beasts for the price of one F450.....

 

[BaldEagle]

What I need is a vehicle that will pull a heavy trailer, or pack 3 drums legally.

skullcap

Since my first post I always stated except to pull big weights in trailers and you just mentioned that ONLY exception.

The Land Rover is expensive but there are cheaper models such as the Defender (cheapest one) that is not sold in N A because the market don't want cheap stuff


Rosco

Getting it moving is one thing....stopping it is a total other thing.

Exactly and that's why I mentioned that single exception.
The cheapest Land Rover (Defender double cabin 130) can pull safely a 4 metric ton trailer only (more then enough for 3 drums of fuel - 200 lts X 0.8= 160 X 3= 480 Kgs plus the drums).

But its not only because of "stopping it" it is also a question of stability of the vehicle and cargo. Its the distance between the wheels that is also too short in most of our vehicles. Hence the exception I have mentioned regarding your pick ups.
However in most of your SUV's the wheel distance is the same as here and they can't pull more then ours in spite of their much bigger engine.

So speaking about going everywhere without a trailer, my position still stands. Regarding the pulling of trailers its probably one of the reasons why you have big pick ups there.

 

[MagSeal]

either you're a deisel engine saleman, or a greenpeace activist...haven't figured it out yet. :blink:

 

[helidude]

Here's my # 1 reason for driving a full size S.U.V. : SAFETY
S.U.V's might have a greater risk of rollovers but that's usually due to driver error. If some drunk or sleepy driver wanders towards me in my lane, chances are I'll be in the bigger vehicle which means he'll probably get hurt more than me! I simply don't care how much gas costs, if I can afford to buy the S.U.V., I can afford to feed it heaps amounts of gasoline.
When you boys mention how the cars are so much more efficient in europe, you don't mention how small they are either! Have you ever seen compact cars in Europe? It's freakin frightening! No wonder they're so good on gas, they're smaller than my remote control 4X4!!!
I don't think you'll care how fuel efficient your "sewing machine" is after a bigger car or truck literally runs you over on your "no speed limits autobhan" or after you plow into a telephone pole!!