Pull out the ALT Manual

[hp_fa]

Does the phrase "No Harm, No Foul" have any meaning?

Bob, I agree with what I perceive to be your basic premise that some folks seem to be assumming that there were possible safety/compliance issues besides simply becoming low on fuel. However, the quote above seems to be equally ridiculous. Are you even thinking that FAA or any other agency should only investigate matters dealing with injury or loss? Talking about making "oopsies" part of the cost of doing business doesn't seem like good public, or business, policy to me.

 

[magsau]

Question???

Did the plane land safely?

No one got killed or injured correct?

Police and Fire were there?

Does the phrase "No Harm, No Foul" have any meaning?

I don't think SWA deliberately violates safety standards. Heck "lawn Darts" are bad for business, so there is no real incentive.

Bob,

Unfortunately safely and legaly are two different issues. If LAF is not an approved airport then the landing safely using a declaration of an emergency is fine. However, why was the aiprlane allowed to be placed in an emergency fuel condition without going to an approved alternate? The safety chain was broken before the divert.

Also, I would be curious to find out where SWA generated the performance data for the field? If it is not in their handy dandy laptop then they were also landing at a field that they had no approved perf. data for. Landing is one thing but if they departed without perf data they could also be looking at other issues.

 

[USstew23]

Purdue graduates quite a few pilots, so it wouldn't surprise me if one of the flight crew was very familiar with LAF.

With one runway 7,651' and the other 5,211' there was plenty of pavement for a WN 737.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/onlin...ams/00865AD.pdf

We can only hope that a320av8r or one of his/her co-workers mistakenly lands at a closed airfield someday. That's happened at several airlines.

Like when his co-workers landed a 737 on the taxi-way at DTW a few years ago IN CLEAR WEATHER!!!! Or when CO landed at some AFB near Houston a few years ago.

 

[KCFlyer]

Like when his co-workers landed a 737 on the taxi-way at DTW a few years ago IN CLEAR WEATHER!!!! Or when CO landed at some AFB near Houston a few years ago.

Dont forget the Delta fight that missed Louisville.

 

[N421LV]

Also, I would be curious to find out where SWA generated the performance data for the field? If it is not in their handy dandy laptop then they were also landing at a field that they had no approved perf. data for. Landing is one thing but if they departed without perf data they could also be looking at other issues.

Hate to burst your blame bubble there, Mag, but our "handy dandy" laptop does indeed have performance data for LAF (and about 350 other civ & mil offline alternate airports). Plus each of our aircraft carries a set of Jepps for all those alternate airports. Apparently YOUR airline does not? Hmmmm.....interesting. Wouldn't you agree it's a darn nice capability to have if things really start to go south on you in a hurry?

Here's another shocker: We have a DISPATCH DEPARTMENT (amazing I know, for a scrappy little shoe-string 121 operation that has only been around for 35 yrs and operates over 3000 flights a day) that I would venture to say was involved in the decision to divert to LAF. There is nothing in our ops specs that prohibits using an off-line airport for an alternate, and they are listed on the release occasionally. If he was holding for MDW delays, switching to a closer-in off-lne alternate could have allowed him to hold longer.

I don't yet know all the factors involved in the divert decision, but it's obvious you know even less. So why not crawl back under your rock and wait for the next opportunity to second guess SWA. We'll certainly be expecting you. 🙄

 

[magsau]

Does LAF have CFAR readily available at all times? As a matter of fact we do have close in aiports for alternates. I know the narrowbody guys use GYY for an ALT. While we have charts for MANY airports in our jepps , we are not allowed to file or use ALT that are not listed as approved airports in the opsspecs. Having a chart is not your legal tender to land in at an aiport as an alternate. You must be under an emergency condidtion to land at a non opspec'd airport. If LAF is in your opsspecs then you are golden, if not then you put an airplane on the ground in a emergency situation due to holding for MDW?

 

[N421LV]

You must be under an emergency condidtion to land at a non opspec'd airport. If LAF is in your opsspecs then you are golden, if not then you put an airplane on the ground in a emergency situation due to holding for MDW?

What makes you think this was even an emergency situation? If you dig out your enroute charts for Chi-Town, you'll see that LAF is just about the closest airport if you're holding southeast of MDW (which is where ATC usually puts us). Sooo....to increase one's holding time, the Captain & DISPATCH (remember we have 'em?) could have decided to change the alternate to LAF. Dispatch would be able to quickly confirm if LAF is a viable alternate vis-a-vis our opspecs, CRAF, etc. Then they would be on the horn to local ATC and fueling facilites to let them know the jet is coming. Look, despite your obvious hatred of SWA, you must know it would be HIGHLY unlikely at SWA (or your airline too, I'm sure) for the Captain to unilaterally plop into an off-line airport without conferring with Dispatch. Give us a little more credit than that, please.

 

[magsau]

W Look, despite your obvious hatred of SWA, you must know it would be HIGHLY unlikely at SWA (or your airline too, I'm sure) for the Captain to unilaterally plop into an off-line airport without conferring with Dispatch. Give us a little more credit than that, please.

Is LAF an approved alternate? We have all of our approved airports in our FOM. Do you guys also? That would settle any debate about legality. If you are not operating at an approved airport you must do so under emergency declaration. Having a dispatcher does not negate this requirement. Also, remember Dispatch can declare an emergency for the flight. I would hope that any type of emergency declaration by the crew would have been coordinated with dispatch. To do otherwise is foolish.

 

[OPNLguy]

Here's another shocker: We have a DISPATCH DEPARTMENT (amazing I know, for a scrappy little shoe-string 121 operation that has only been around for 35 yrs and operates over 3000 flights a day) that I would venture to say was involved in the decision to divert to LAF. There is nothing in our ops specs that prohibits using an off-line airport for an alternate, and they are listed on the release occasionally. If he was holding for MDW delays, switching to a closer-in off-lne alternate could have allowed him to hold longer.

I don't yet know all the factors involved in the divert decision, but it's obvious you know even less. So why not crawl back under your rock and wait for the next opportunity to second guess SWA. We'll certainly be expecting you. 🙄

Thanks for mentioning us N421LV...

It's funny, but had it not been such a slow news day in LAF, this would have just been another routine diversion to an offline alternate.

Diversions to online airports are almost always preferable to offline airports, but as Magsau should know (if he's really an airline pilot), sometimes (if ATC extends a hold) the PIC and Dispatcher will "tighten-up" the alternate to something offline and closer-in (less fuel to get to the alternate, thus more for holding), and most of the time, that additional time allows the flight to tolerate the extended hold and get cleared inbound. On rare occasions, that doesn't work, and one is committed to land at that closer-in offline alternate.

There's an old expression that goes something like "When all you have is a hammer, you tend to approach each problem as if it were a nail" and I think that pretty much describes Magsau's apparent obsessive belief that anything/everything that Southwest does is incompetent by default. I don't know what the particular burr under his saddle is, but I suspect it really has zippo to do with Southwest, and has everything to do with his current employer and his tenure there. God help my bretheren Dispatchers at United that have to deal with a CRM poster child like this... 😉

 

[N421LV]

Is LAF an approved alternate? We have all of our approved airports in our FOM. Do you guys also? That would settle any debate about legality.

Funny, I thought that question was answered in my first post, but let me recap again for you in no uncertain terms:

LAF is listed in SWA's opspecs as an approved alternate. It is also depicted (with all our other off-line alternates) on our SWA-tailored Jepp High Altitude Enroute charts for quick & easy reference.

If you are not operating at an approved airport you must do so under emergency declaration. Having a dispatcher does not negate this requirement. Also, remember Dispatch can declare an emergency for the flight. I would hope that any type of emergency declaration by the crew would have been coordinated with dispatch. To do otherwise is foolish.

Agreed. Got any more blinding statements of the obvious you'd like to share?

 

[robbedagain]

Dont forget the Delta fight that missed Louisville.

and a nwa airbus that landed at a military base instead of the commerical airport in nebraska last year!

 

[N924PS]

Funny, I thought that question was answered in my first post, but let me recap again for you in no uncertain terms:

LAF is listed in SWA's opspecs as an approved alternate. It is also depicted (with all our other off-line alternates) on our SWA-tailored Jepp High Altitude Enroute charts for quick & easy reference.
Agreed. Got any more blinding statements of the obvious you'd like to share?

MAGSAU is not representative of most of the good UAL folks. You should have seen her in action during the propsed USAirways UAL Merger. What a _itch.

 

[magsau]

MAGSAU is not representative of most of the good UAL folks. You should have seen her in action during the propsed USAirways UAL Merger. What a _itch.

Well, I am not a "HER". You are right on one account the acquisition would have been a brillant idea wouldn't? ROTFL. Not buying US at $65 a share probably saved us both from extinction.

 

[KCFlyer]

Hmmm...I see that the skygod has spoken again, and in a thread about the dangerous cowboylike pilots at LUV. Now, I have him on ignore, but I thought I would open it to see if he might have posted about the two LUV flights that did NOT land at PVD because of weather and no tower personnel. Turns out he didn't. But I wonder why, within hours of a negative incident being reported, he doesn't hesitate to post on this board...but after several DAYS of an incident he himself most likely would have diverted in, no so much as a "good job" to the pilots at LUV. Guess I might expect too much.

 

[OPNLguy]

but I thought I would open it to see if he might have posted about the two LUV flights that did NOT land at PVD because of weather and no tower personnel.

Simple...

Since the PVD RVR was below CAT-I and CAT-II minimus, but above CAT-III mins, and the note on the CAT-III approach plate said "Cat III mins N/A when tower closed", s/he couldn't, like you said, bring her/himself to admit that the SWA crews had done it legally, safely, and by the book. Runs contrary to her/his bias...