You're right Jetbox, any company can give a rate and then discount it to impress the customer, so standard tariffs really don't help solve the puzzle. As for our company, as I said, rarely do the rates drop very much and the majority are the listed tariff, with some discounted 50-100 $$ for regulars. There is no doubt, the higher rates are questioned occasionally, reasons are explained and they are free to visit the competition if they want to - usually they stay. Some business is lost due to maintaining higher tariffs, but that's life.
Rates In The Sewer
- Thread starter 407 Driver
- Start date
It's too bad Nomex that all customers don't appreciate or don't care that good reliable and SAFE service has a price. What gets me is that the customers that think their so smart for getting the helicopter at a discount price are the same idiots that don't realize the hours being billed probably don't match what's in the log book and that at the end of the job, they ended up paying more anyways because they got shafted somewhere else!
How else can these discount operators explain how they make ends meet???
It's frustrating as he-- is all :down: :down:
How else can these discount operators explain how they make ends meet???
It's frustrating as he-- is all :down: :down:
Nomex and JetBox: It is very admirable of you guys to post your rates, when in actual fact they don't mean anything. You know and I know that you can change your rates as many times as you wish in any time frame.
I've posted on this subject before and until there is a minimum tariff for all helicopters, it won't change.
The operators spent their time cutting each others throat when it was regulated, so now it's de-regulated, welcome to reality.
I hope everybody (operators) had a great time at HAC and will let us poor peon's know what was accomplished in Brians little world, other than a booze up.
Have you ever thought an association with some balls might be able to get through to some of these people.
Just my thoughts, having been regulated and de-regulated.
Cheers, Don
I've posted on this subject before and until there is a minimum tariff for all helicopters, it won't change.
The operators spent their time cutting each others throat when it was regulated, so now it's de-regulated, welcome to reality.
I hope everybody (operators) had a great time at HAC and will let us poor peon's know what was accomplished in Brians little world, other than a booze up.
Have you ever thought an association with some balls might be able to get through to some of these people.
Just my thoughts, having been regulated and de-regulated.
Cheers, Don
I was just wondering what you guys think the rates should be in a perfect world?
A certain amount of profit has been factored in, but this profit margin seems to have the competitions rates in mind. Take a 206 for example. What should the ideal rate be? Within reason of course.
I had friends return from the US saying that a 206 was going for $1200 USD/hr. At a middle of the road exchange of say 1.4, that would be $1680 CD/hr!!!!!!!Can we compare rates like that or is there something I don't understand - no, seriously. Could a brave soul in the know give us a generic breakdown of the costs of running a 206 in a typical operation. If not, I understand, but it would probably be enlightening for some.
I looked into all the costs of running an R44 once, and it scared the sh!! out of me.
Help me out here guys, is my math suspect? Man, imagine what we could do with those kind of rates - if they are realistic. Maybe our rates should float daily along with the USD and educate our customers for this. Is that already happening?
Obviously I'm no economist. Just ask the war department in my house. Haven't made any money in 6 months yet I still want approval to buy a used Valk. All 1500 ccs. 98 lbs of Q!!
A certain amount of profit has been factored in, but this profit margin seems to have the competitions rates in mind. Take a 206 for example. What should the ideal rate be? Within reason of course.
I had friends return from the US saying that a 206 was going for $1200 USD/hr. At a middle of the road exchange of say 1.4, that would be $1680 CD/hr!!!!!!!Can we compare rates like that or is there something I don't understand - no, seriously. Could a brave soul in the know give us a generic breakdown of the costs of running a 206 in a typical operation. If not, I understand, but it would probably be enlightening for some.
I looked into all the costs of running an R44 once, and it scared the sh!! out of me.
Help me out here guys, is my math suspect? Man, imagine what we could do with those kind of rates - if they are realistic. Maybe our rates should float daily along with the USD and educate our customers for this. Is that already happening?
Obviously I'm no economist. Just ask the war department in my house. Haven't made any money in 6 months yet I still want approval to buy a used Valk. All 1500 ccs. 98 lbs of Q!!
I just checked, and the current exchange is 1.36. That works out to $1632/hr for a 206.
I realize that some companies feel that they can afford to low-ball because the equipment is paid for. Maybe those companies have DOC's and other costs that add up to $500/hr (my number). Now, rather than low-ball and maybe break even, how about commanding $1632/hr. What would you do with the remaining $1132.
That is no doubt an un-realistic profit margin, or is it? In my simple little economic black hole, what would a 212 be making a day on a campaign fire? Maybe then I could afford that Valkyrie. Probably not. 🙁
I realize that some companies feel that they can afford to low-ball because the equipment is paid for. Maybe those companies have DOC's and other costs that add up to $500/hr (my number). Now, rather than low-ball and maybe break even, how about commanding $1632/hr. What would you do with the remaining $1132.
That is no doubt an un-realistic profit margin, or is it? In my simple little economic black hole, what would a 212 be making a day on a campaign fire? Maybe then I could afford that Valkyrie. Probably not. 🙁
you can't get that much for a 206 unless the costs of running quads skyrockets the same. To many customers, using a helicopter is still a luxury. If it's out of their reach they'll go back to a slower and cheaper method. Either walking, quading, or driving.
I don't know why the americans can get it, but maybe in the exploration and exucutive sectors there is still a good tax write off available to them.
I don't know why the americans can get it, but maybe in the exploration and exucutive sectors there is still a good tax write off available to them.
Pitch Link
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I think blackmac has a very valid point. You can post your published rates all you want, but at the end of the day when you are pitching the customer there is a lot of room to move. Especially on the rates posted by nomex. Im sorry but I think its a bit of a stretch to ask those prices when even the Government doesnt pay that high. You should check the published short term contract rates for Alberta forestry. Not even within a few hundred dollars of your prices. Does this mean you would turn down forestry for work? Because they wouldnt come to the table. Of coarse not. When companies are putting 205's out for under $2000 it makes it kind of tough to compete. As for the customer accepting the lowest offer. Thats just business. Everyone is here to make money. some can be educated and some do see the value of not lowballing. But for most it just means a bigger profit margin.
Blackmac - I'm not being idealistic or unrealistic and there is nothing for us to fight over, T-Rex just suggested posting what the tariffs are that various companies have, and I did as ours our not secret, and like I said, the vast majority of all our charters are for those rates - they're not just a figure that doesn't mean anything or that is written down to be discounted at every opportunity - that's our company and I know it won't apply to all other companies. The rates haven't changed for a couple of years except for fuel going up and down. There was no intention to start a big discussion on rates...
T-Rex, yes those rates are for the 17, not the 13.
T-Rex, yes those rates are for the 17, not the 13.
USA in area's is very interesting!
Yes, alot of rates are productive towards the Operator's there. The machine is a fixed rate per hour for the day. If you require a truck engineer and other ops gear, this is extra!!! Nothing wrong with this thinking!
Where would we be if the helo showed up and the client was advised if he required an Engineer and vehicle to be on site it would be another $400 a day! Oh, a water bucket and ops gear, humm another $25 per flight hour! ( come on, it's only a $9000 Bambi) I wish, we are abused, but have no one to blame but ourselves!!
Where is Eutopia ???
Yes, alot of rates are productive towards the Operator's there. The machine is a fixed rate per hour for the day. If you require a truck engineer and other ops gear, this is extra!!! Nothing wrong with this thinking!
Where would we be if the helo showed up and the client was advised if he required an Engineer and vehicle to be on site it would be another $400 a day! Oh, a water bucket and ops gear, humm another $25 per flight hour! ( come on, it's only a $9000 Bambi) I wish, we are abused, but have no one to blame but ourselves!!
Where is Eutopia ???
T-Rex, look at the trouble you got me in!!! Actually I guess it was 407D that started this and now where are you to help out?!?!
Pitchlink posted after my last - there is no doubt that contracts have different rates, AFS, BCFS, Hydro etc, as well different geographical areas generally have higher and/or lower tariffs. The max discounted rates I mentioned earlier are for the 206, so the more expensive machines will have higher discounted rates for such contracts.
Do we otherwise turn down work because of demand for lower tariffs - yes if the tariff requested is unrealistic. Believe it or not, we get the rates I posted or very close, for the majority of charters.
407D - I'm sure last summer you were getting appropriate tariffs for practicing your long-lining - we got full tariff - the government does pay that high.
There, I'm getting out of this thread.
Pitchlink posted after my last - there is no doubt that contracts have different rates, AFS, BCFS, Hydro etc, as well different geographical areas generally have higher and/or lower tariffs. The max discounted rates I mentioned earlier are for the 206, so the more expensive machines will have higher discounted rates for such contracts.
Do we otherwise turn down work because of demand for lower tariffs - yes if the tariff requested is unrealistic. Believe it or not, we get the rates I posted or very close, for the majority of charters.
407D - I'm sure last summer you were getting appropriate tariffs for practicing your long-lining - we got full tariff - the government does pay that high.
There, I'm getting out of this thread.
Yes, maybe there are more creative ways to increase the rates, instead of the one price for the complete package.
Why not take it to the next step? Customer X who is looking for operators to provide 1500 + hrs experienced pilots to do routine flying. Maybe operators could start charging for that experience.
I agree that some customers are running their budgets to the max just to utilise helicopters for a certain job. That doesn't justify giving the thing away! As elitist as this sounds, maybe those types of customers should not be encouraged. It is a luxury, and should be treated as such.
Why not take it to the next step? Customer X who is looking for operators to provide 1500 + hrs experienced pilots to do routine flying. Maybe operators could start charging for that experience.
I agree that some customers are running their budgets to the max just to utilise helicopters for a certain job. That doesn't justify giving the thing away! As elitist as this sounds, maybe those types of customers should not be encouraged. It is a luxury, and should be treated as such.
Nomex: One day possibly I will say something that people will not forever believe that I have another agenda in mind.
If you are getting the rates you want for your choppers, all the more power to you.
My remark was that so called published rates are not worth the paper they are written on. End of story. No fight required.
Cheers Don
If you are getting the rates you want for your choppers, all the more power to you.
My remark was that so called published rates are not worth the paper they are written on. End of story. No fight required.
Cheers Don
One of the problems that is now being encountered in both Europe and this part of the world is the rich private owner who buys a new toy, then gives it to an operator to help "cover the costs". The operator is then able to charge it out at much less because its not his and only has to try and break even. The problem for the commercial operator that owns and operates his own machines is that he has to now drop his prices to compete, or lose the work, and he doesnt have the rich guy underwriting the costs of the said aircraft.
Heli Ops
Heli Ops
A similar method would be the use of "fractionals", something that is becoming increasingly common south of the border. I'm not 100% sure how they work, but it seems that a group of individuals get together and purchase or lease an A/C and then divide the usage up accordingly.
I don't know if this is a common pracitise in this country, or what the possible implications for the helicopter industry might be.
O.K, last post I swear! I'm supposed to be out doing yard work. B)
I don't know if this is a common pracitise in this country, or what the possible implications for the helicopter industry might be.
O.K, last post I swear! I'm supposed to be out doing yard work. B)
