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Results Of Fa Strike Vote?

I believe the $500 mil is for all other groups combined.

The point is that ALPA has made their agreement with the company and tied it into all other agreements. If the other groups give only $499 million plus termination of their pensions ALPA goes right back to their 2003 agreement and retains their pension.

So basically we are trying to cut a deal with the company and the company is now going to say that if we don't give them all they want it will jeopardize the pilot's agreeement. If you look at the AMFA term sheet, the time line and the way the company has been dragging it's feet in the negotiations it's pretty obvious that we (AMFA) are headed to the judge. There is no 'good faith' in this process on the company's side.

ALPA has basically 'shanked' us....
 
UAL_TECH said:
Exactly why the AFL-CIO affiliation does not mean sqaut.
When 'Unions' add 'cross picket' language into their contracts they should not be a member of the 'AFL-CIO'!!!

ALPA has become a group of 'Pilot Management' and should be removed as being considered a 'Unionized organization'!!!!

The 'membership by numbers' rhetoric is now a dues donation comercial.

IMHO,
B) UT
[post="230117"][/post]​

Apparently, someone else is in agreement with my opinion:

United Airlines pilots' deal sparks backlash from other unions

Pat Friend, president of the Association of Flight Attendants, said in an interview with the FT: 'I think (the Airline Pilots Association) should be expelled from the AFL-CIO. They have no idea what being a trade unionist means.'

B) UT
 
Fly said:
Sad that the flight attendant group was supposed to come up with an additional $191 million (or something close to that) and ALPA has upped that on us to $500 million. Thanks guys! Essentially we need to agree to everything United asked for and then some to reach that number.
[post="230211"][/post]​
If you keep taking cuts, soon, you all have to go stand in welfare line and eat government cheese. It's so sad things aren't where they used to be....:-(
 
Fly said:
Sad that the flight attendant group was supposed to come up with an additional $191 million (or something close to that) and ALPA has upped that on us to $500 million. Thanks guys! Essentially we need to agree to everything United asked for and then some to reach that number.
[post="230211"][/post]​


Slow down the spin, Fly. If you read it again you'll see that the $500 Mil # is all other groups combined, including management and salaried employees. Why don't you add up the concession target for each group and see what # you come up with? I don't know the exact targets for other groups, but I know the total is somewhere above $500 Mil. So you can retract your statement, because ALPA has not raised the target for anyone.

ALPA was the sacrificial lamb last time with our contribution far exceeding our percent of total labor cost. This time we are just ensuring that we are not left as the only ones swaying in the wind. IF the company decides to negotiate lower cuts for other groups, that's great. But then they must come back and renegotiate with us as well.

And one more time, ALPA does NOT demand that anyone's pension gets terminated. Only that IF the company decides to keep pensions for any other group, (including management... remember them?) then they can not terminate ours. I'm sure your final agreement, if you come to one, will stipulate the same thing.
 
Yes, I misread that about the $500 million. I'm sorry.

I agree that the pilots took a larger chunk of change than any other group.....they also make more so their pain is not as intense. A pilot making $200,000 can take a 50% paycut much easier than can a $30,000 flight attendant. Think about it. A pilot can sell his house, and buy another and still live a quality life. The same percentage cut ensures that the flight attendant loses his home.
 
Fly said:
Yes, I misread that about the $500 million. I'm sorry.

I agree that the pilots took a larger chunk of change than any other group.....they also make more so their pain is not as intense. A pilot making $200,000 can take a 50% paycut much easier than can a $30,000 flight attendant. Think about it. A pilot can sell his house, and buy another and still live a quality life. The same percentage cut ensures that the flight attendant loses his home.
[post="230347"][/post]​

I can only partially agree with that. Obviously, a person who makes more $ is futher away from welfare and food stamps than someone who makes less. But not all pilots make 200 Grand. In fact very few do. Now take the person who makes $90,000 to $100,000 and give him a 50% pay cut and you can't possibly say that's not very very painful. In fact it is life altering.

And at this point I don't hold a grudge for making bigger sacrifices up 'till now. I have a problem with those who are up in arms that we came to a tentative agreement and claim we did so on the backs of others.
 
88% of the flt att. voted to begin chaos strikes if UAL tries to throw out the contract on January 7th. That is if Ual and Afa do not reach some sort of deal first.
 
Hello Everyone:

I am on a long term voluntary furlough and therefore was not able to cast a vote for a strike should our contract be terminated. I just want to say I am very proud of my fellow AFA brothers and sisters at United who came together in support of our MEC negotiating committee. Historically our membership has been apathetic and divided (remember the 1997 tentative passing 53% for, 47% against?). Thank you for your "YES" vote and for sending United management the message that we are collectively behind our AFA negotiating committee.

In Solidarity,

JAMAKE1

Proud AFA Union Member, SFOSW
 
The AFA said that of the "eligible voters participating," 88% voted for a strike. However, they failed to mention what % of the total flight attendants actually voted. It's curious that the AFA at both UA and US Airways never publish the complete numbers (i.e. the % of the total membership that voted AND the % that voted for or against). I suspect that the percentage at UA that actually voted was quite low, but the few that did vote, voted for a strike. Had UA flight attendant voter turnout been high, they surely would have posted the % of voter turnout as well as it only strengthens their position. Perhaps an AFA member can post BOTH pieces of verifiable information to prove my suspicions wrong.
 
United had better think loooong and haaaard before they go canx them there union contracts. If they do....it will most certainly be the last time they ask the employees for concessions, cause that will be the end of ual. Today's actions by the PG assoc. was a clever move, they hardly think ual will risk alienating the entire work force by canx their pensions and contracts. They are aware that the Ual Pilot agreement is good only if all other pensions are canx. Ain't gonna happen. If it does...they have saved themselves $140 million dollars by acting today instead of 05. Tradgically, this has turned into a quagmire. I would not want to be in Mr. Glen Tilton's shoes for a Zillion dollars.
 
ualdriver said:
The AFA said that of the "eligible voters participating," 88% voted for a strike. However, they failed to mention what % of the total flight attendants actually voted. It's curious that the AFA at both UA and US Airways never publish the complete numbers (i.e. the % of the total membership that voted AND the % that voted for or against). I suspect that the percentage at UA that actually voted was quite low, but the few that did vote, voted for a strike. Had UA flight attendant voter turnout been high, they surely would have posted the % of voter turnout as well as it only strengthens their position. Perhaps an AFA member can post BOTH pieces of verifiable information to prove my suspicions wrong.
[post="234009"][/post]​


looking for hanging chads can't be far behind...
kinda the same way W claims a mandate with 51% of the vote

the fact is those who chose to make an effort and get involved voted overwhelmingly in favor of the unions position on self help, as many have posted here and other boards as well, there is a point of diminishing returns, now i believe the ball is in the companies court to find common ground with afa before the baby goes out with the bathwater


btw how many eligible voters voted on Nov 2nd, i suspect the results are equally
meaningless at this point
 
UAL Driver:

You posed a good question, which prompted me to make a call to our AFA Communications Chairperson. She informed me that there are strategic reasons why AFA is not releasing information on the total percentage of the F/A population that voted. She did tell me the figures and it was very encouraging, but out of respect for the MEC I am not going to post the numbers here. I will tell you that the total percentage of F/A's that did vote was not low. I personally am very pleased with the outcome. Stay tuned.

Best,

JAMAKE
 
North by Northwest said:
United had better think loooong and haaaard before they go canx them there union contracts. If they do....it will most certainly be the last time they ask the employees for concessions, cause that will be the end of ual. Today's actions by the PG assoc. was a clever move, they hardly think ual will risk alienating the entire work force by canx their pensions and contracts. They are aware that the Ual Pilot agreement is good only if all other pensions are canx. Ain't gonna happen. If it does...they have saved themselves $140 million dollars by acting today instead of 05. Tradgically, this has turned into a quagmire. I would not want to be in Mr. Glen Tilton's shoes for a Zillion dollars.
[post="234019"][/post]​



agreed, this is starting to read more and more like lord of the flies



With a special MEC Update for Thursday, December 30, 2004, this is MEC Communications Chairman Steve Derebey.

This morning in major newspapers across the country, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC) placed advertisements directed toward "All Participants, Retirees and Beneficiaries of the United Airlines Pilot Defined Benefit Pension Plan."

The ad stated the following: "The PBGC, a United States government agency, has determined under provisions of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) that the above pension plan must terminate and that the PBGC should become statutory trustee of the pension plan. PBGC has determined that the company's sponsorship of the pension plan will end on December 30, 2004. As of that date, participants cannot earn additional benefits under the plan. PBGC will seek to take over the plan's assets and assume responsibility for paying benefits. In the interim, UAL Corp. remains responsible for payment of plan benefits."

In reaction to today's announcement by the PBGC, the United MEC released the following statement:

“We deplore the PBGC's ill-timed attempt to retaliate against the United pilot group in the United bankruptcy proceeding.

“ALPA's tentative agreement with United does not permit the termination of the pilot pension plan without a final judicial determination that pension termination is necessary for the Company to emerge from bankruptcy or at any point prior to May 1, 2005. As the PBGC is well aware, there are no grounds for the termination of the pilot pension plan.

“ALPA will vigorously oppose any effort by the PBGC to take over the plan before May 1, 2005 or to single out the pilot group for punitive and vindictive treatment in the United bankruptcy. Under the terms of the tentative pilot agreement, the Company has also agreed to oppose any attempt to terminate the pilot pension plan prior to May 1, 2005.

“In addition, the tentative pilot agreement requires United to continue the pilot pension plan if any other United employee group maintains a defined benefit pension program following the bankruptcy. We will vigorously enforce that right against the PBGC or any other party that seeks to single out the pilot group for unfair treatment in the
bankruptcy proceeding.

“We are equally concerned about the timing of the PBGC action in the midst of a pilot membership vote over the tentative pilot agreement. We question whether the PBGC's action may be designed to confuse the pilot group, undermine the membership ratification process and deprive the pilots of the benefits and protections of the tentative agreement. If so, today's action is an outrageous ploy by the PBGC to harm the very employee interests that the agency is sworn to protect.

“The pilots of United Airlines are critical to the reorganization of this Company and, by far have sacrificed the most to save the airline. We demand to be recognized and compensated for our unique contributions, and we will take every lawful action necessary to protect the interests of the United pilots against the PBGC or any other party in this proceeding.â€￾

Be advised that the PBGC cannot terminate a qualified plan simply by taking out a few newspaper advertisements. In fact, there is a specific legal process which must be followed, which requires them to persuade a US District Court Judge that such an action is necessary. One might easily conclude that this action by this government agency is little more than an effort to interfere with a ratification vote over an agreement it has already made clear it intends to oppose.

We urge you to continue to monitor your union’s communications as we will provide you with up to date and factual information as events unfold around our career and profession.
 
JAMAKE1 said:
UAL Driver:

You posed a good question, which prompted me to make a call to our AFA Communications Chairperson. She informed me that there are strategic reasons why AFA is not releasing information on the total percentage of the F/A population that voted. She did tell me the figures and it was very encouraging, but out of respect for the MEC I am not going to post the numbers here. I will tell you that the total percentage of F/A's that did vote was not low. I personally am very pleased with the outcome. Stay tuned.

Best,

JAMAKE
[post="234025"][/post]​

Well, I think you would have to enlighten this person as to what strategic advanage there is in NOT publishing what % of the total flight attendants that received a ballot actually voted. If it was a high %, then stating it publicly would only "strenghten" the AFA's position. This is all about chest beating, isn't it? Why only beat with one arm? Maybe that one arm is all that the AFA has? If it was a low % voter turnout, it would make it look like the general flight attendant population either didn't care or didn't agree with "chaos theory" so chose not to cast a vote. If I were at the other end of the negotiating table, until I heard differently and officially from the AFA, I would suspect the latter. Not that any of this will probably matter anyway as I doubt the bucket in front of them changes size just because they scream the loudest in the press. Anyway, one way or the other, I suspect there will be very little, if any, "chaos."

Thanks for the info JAMAKE.
 

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