Retiree Equity Lawsuit Info

[NYer]

. Glad you asked. I spoke to a pilot a few months back about this very issue. This guy is sharp on numbers and he said with the 16% contribution they are down about 2 to 3 percent. How much of a hit did we take?

 
I'm sure he has a very nice calculator and could be as "sharp" as you describe, but we'll need something a little bit more verifiable than that. The flaw in a calculator or in calculations is that you can get the wrong answer if you put in the wrong equation.

 

[NYer]

no WE LOST 330 million the TWU lost nothing in fact they got a raise!

 
You can argue the semantics of that, but under the LAW the owners of the CBA are their respective unions who are the ones that were deemed Creditors.
 
I understand there are some that want to portray this issue as "us" versus "them," but the bankruptcy process sees the organization and it's Members as one in the same.

 

[AANOTOK]

So in your defense of the TWU, you feel it is OK to withhold another 5% to fight and/or settle with the former employees. Keeping in mind they withheld 5% just for this purpose as stated in the Power Point Presentation...You see no obligation for the TWU to fight this battle with dues that we have paid in already, but instead use extra monies we were supposed to collect for our BK concessions.
 
So I would also assume that in your TWU mind, there is no cap as to how many shares the TWU can keep taking if the need it to continue this battle.

 

[1AA]

 
I'm sure he has a very nice calculator and could be as "sharp" as you describe, but we'll need something a little bit more verifiable than that. The flaw in a calculator or in calculations is that you can get the wrong answer if you put in the wrong equation.

Why? Are you a pilot? Point is they negotiated a better deal. The TWU did not even put an effort in negotiations. The Pilots and Flight Attendants both did better. Could it be that maybe they both have Craft unions that vote for their International officers? Just saying. We got screwed in every way imaginable. Hard to argue that point.
We need to make a change in unions because the union wont change.
Cards are flying around the work place and guys are pushing for change.

 

[HMK]

So in your defense of the TWU, you feel it is OK to withhold another 5% to fight and/or settle with the former employees. Keeping in mind they withheld 5% just for this purpose as stated in the Power Point Presentation...You see no obligation for the TWU to fight this battle with dues that we have paid in already, but instead use extra monies we were supposed to collect for our BK concessions.
 
So I would also assume that in your TWU mind, there is no cap as to how many shares the TWU can keep taking if the need it to continue this battle.

Well said, but NYer and others will still defend the TWU!

 

[AANYER]

NYer and Tex-Mex,
 
We the members asked a simply question, Please give us the parameters behind our first and second equity distributions for clarity and transparency? Now, look what has developed since then. The TWU leaders first tried to castigate us, then they called us names and tried to call us out.  Now they have put together a website with the same old hypothetical information and formulas which don't tell us exactly how we received our first and second distributions.  Furthermore, they now have informed us that they plan to not respond to our appeals until July 14, 2014.  This is the type of nonsense that we wanted to avoid.  We were all afraid of this happening.  Well, guest what, they now plan to extract another 5% in reserves from our precious small equity distribution that we were to receive. The question is, For what? The answer, to correct more of their misguided mistakes.  They should fight the pending retiree case with the big slush fund of money that they receive from us each and every week.  It's called dues.  How much more will the TWU cost us? This has been torture for the pass 15 years, it's more that you and I can bare.  TWU, we implore you, DO NOT DO THIS. Please stop this madness.

 

[AANOTOK]

So Mr. Harry Lombardo listened well when Mr. Little was speaking. Took notes on exactly how to fleece it's membership and preserve his luxurious lifestyle on the backs of the hard working members. Well done Mr. Lombardo. Now I'm sure Mr. Drummond has a sharp pencil and a brand new notepad in hand, daily!

 

[NYer]

So in your defense of the TWU, you feel it is OK to withhold another 5% to fight and/or settle with the former employees. Keeping in mind they withheld 5% just for this purpose as stated in the Power Point Presentation...You see no obligation for the TWU to fight this battle with dues that we have paid in already, but instead use extra monies we were supposed to collect for our BK concessions.
 
So I would also assume that in your TWU mind, there is no cap as to how many shares the TWU can keep taking if the need it to continue this battle.

 
I guess in your mind, if you're not "against" then you're automatically "for." Which isn't the case, but facts are facts.
 
If you read the actual lawsuit, the 10% came from within that document in which they estimate that is their share. That being the case, it is prudent to use that as a "worst case" scenario as to the amount of Equity it could potentially take to satisfy their suit....As unlikely as that is.
 
From the lawsuit: "A preliminary injunction is appropriate to preserve the status quo while this litigation is pending. Because TWU plans to reserve only 5% of the Equity to settle expenses, including administrative expenses, eligibility appeals, inaccuracies, and litigation costs, and approximately 10% of TWU Members employed by American accepted an Early Out or Stand-in-Stead, TWU’s reserve will not be sufficient to satisfy the claims of the Early Out/SIS Plaintiffs and the Class."
 
It is understandable that those that are against the TWU will interpret everything they do as a negative, and even include their interpretation of facts may be changed in order to fit that negativity. Too often these debates are split between those that believe everything TWU is bad and those that are labeled as "defenders." I'm neither, but if facts are sought and I have some...I will share.

 

[NYer]

Why? Are you a pilot? Point is they negotiated a better deal. The TWU did not even put an effort in negotiations. The Pilots and Flight Attendants both did better. Could it be that maybe they both have Craft unions that vote for their International officers? Just saying. We got screwed in every way imaginable. Hard to argue that point.
We need to make a change in unions because the union wont change.
Cards are flying around the work place and guys are pushing for change.

 
They negotiated a better deal because they lost a larger amount, estimated to be over the $1B range. (according to documents filed in their Equity Eligibility Arbitration). You lose more, you get more....That's how Equity works in a BK and the percentages have to be approved by the Creditors' Committee who will not allow one group to get more than they lost.
 
From the decision, in the APA's favor, of their Equity Distribution Arbitration: "As previously noted, the amount of the APA allocation to the Pension Silo - $1.08 billion- was primarily based upon the Company’s estimate of the cost savings to it of the freeze of the A Plan. The amount of the Pension Silo allocation was also predicated, albeit to a lesser extent, on the APA interest in minimizing disparities in payouts to the pilots."

 

[NYer]

Well said, but NYer and others will still defend the TWU!

 
I try to back up my posts with facts, not conjecture or emotional rants. If you want the TWU out, then by all means work towards your goals. But trying to twist everything that happens as a "sign" or more "evidence" of your position to make a change is not conducive to your credibility.
 
The sky can't be falling at every turn....I share, the facts and sometimes that derails the "agenda" so the messenger is labeled as an enemy combatant. OK, your choice....but it does little to swing voters to your side.

 

[NYer]

 
NYer and Tex-Mex,
 
We the members asked a simply question, Please give us the parameters behind our first and second equity distributions for clarity and transparency? Now, look what has developed since then. The TWU leaders first tried to castigate us, then they called us names and tried to call us out.  Now they have put together a website with the same old hypothetical information and formulas which don't tell us exactly how we received our first and second distributions.  Furthermore, they now have informed us that they plan to not respond to our appeals until July 14, 2014.  This is the type of nonsense that we wanted to avoid.  We were all afraid of this happening.  Well, guest what, they now plan to extract another 5% in reserves from our precious small equity distribution that we were to receive. The question is, For what? The answer, to correct more of their misguided mistakes.  They should fight the pending retiree case with the big slush fund of money that they receive from us each and every week.  It's called dues.  How much more will the TWU cost us? This has been torture for the pass 15 years, it's more that you and I can bare.  TWU, we implore you, DO NOT DO THIS. Please stop this madness.
 

 
You should get your answer, but I don't have it.
 
As stated in the past, they will review the appeals after the distribution has been made since that is the only way to see if everyone received their value. The distribution is to end in early April. Members will have 30 days to submit their appeals and at that time the Equity Appeals Committee will be able to determine what is what. I would assume the formula would also be made available.
 
I don't believe the other Divisions would be so open to have their share of dues go towards payment of something that is not related to a contractual negotiations or other representational related issue. We don't have airline guys at the helm anymore, so you can wave away those hopes of those funds coming towards the ATD.
 
All the other unions are maintaining their Equity expenses separate from their dues, the distribution expenses are self contained.

 

[NYer]

So Mr. Harry Lombardo listened well when Mr. Little was speaking. Took notes on exactly how to fleece it's membership and preserve his luxurious lifestyle on the backs of the hard working members. Well done Mr. Lombardo. Now I'm sure Mr. Drummond has a sharp pencil and a brand new notepad in hand, daily!

 
Did you really believe that changing No.1 with No.2 was going to bring a difference? It may have made things a bit worse since now the hierarchy is transit and railroads.
 
Your goal of change will be much easier now.

 

[AANOTOK]

NYer,
 
Did you actually read Drummonds letter?
 
From Drummonds letter: Faced with all these considerations,, TWU has decided that it has no alternative other
than to increase the reserve out of the 120 day distribution by the amount of shares necessary to constitute about 10% of the total distribution in order to cover any liability that might arise from an adverse decision.
 
So Nyer, 5% from the Power Point Presentation and now this letter stating 10% now would mean they are withholding an additional 5% percent of the shares. Get your facts straight and stop spinning.
 
Also, I noticed you did not answer my question as to since there is no cap, you are OK with them coming back and taking more shares as they see fit.
 
I will wait for your FACTS!

 

[NYer]

NYer,
 
Did you actually read Drummonds letter?
 
From Drummonds letter: Faced with all these considerations,, TWU has decided that it has no alternative other
than to increase the reserve out of the 120 day distribution by the amount of shares necessary to constitute about 10% of the total distribution in order to cover any liability that might arise from an adverse decision.
 
So Nyer, 5% from the Power Point Presentation and now this letter stating 10% now would mean they are withholding an additional 5% percent of the shares. Get your facts straight and stop spinning.
 
Also, I noticed you did not answer my question as to since there is no cap, you are OK with them coming back and taking more shares as they see fit.
 
I will wait for your FACTS!

 
Yes, I read the letter dated January 21, 2014. I also read the lawsuit filed December 2, 2013 in which the lawyers that filed that suit argued that 5% wasn't enough since those that took the Early Out and SIS number in the 10% of the total Memberships. They asked for an injunction to STOP the distribution until the lawsuit it met because of their belief that 5% isn't enough to satisfy their request. I'd rather they hold another 5% than to stop the entire distribution and possibly tie up the shares indefinitely.
 
From the lawsuit🙁dated Dec.2, 2013) "A preliminary injunction is appropriate to preserve the status quo while this litigation is pending. Because TWU plans to reserve only 5% of the Equity to settle expenses, including administrative expenses, eligibility appeals, inaccuracies, and litigation costs, and approximately 10% of TWU Members employed by American accepted an Early Out or Stand-in-Stead, TWU’s reserve will not be sufficient to satisfy the claims of the Early Out/SIS Plaintiffs and the Class."
 
The beginning of the Drummond letter states🙁dated Jan.21, 2014) "A number of former TWU represented AA employees have initiated a class action seeking to represent over 2300 persons who accepted early-outs and stand-in-steads and others who left AA.  By their rough calculations, plaintiffs claim that they would be entitled to 10% of the shares allocated to TWU. As you know, the Equity Distribution Plan set aside 5% of the shares for appeals, litigation liability and expenses and administration."
 
--------------------------------
 
And "NO" I would not be in favor of them holding more because "they see fit." If it is substantiated, then it is what it is.

 

[AANOTOK]

...and you miss the whole point of this argument, NYer.
 
In my opinion, they have their 5% percent, the Equity Committee, Lawyers, Labor Bureau (whoever else) agreed to when this was drafted and presented. What I'm saying is any additional funds to fight this lawsuit, while still on the backs of the members, should come from the dues we pay bi-weekly and not from concession shares/money. As a matter of fact, some of the money that these EO's paid in dues is still sitting in the TWU coffers.
 
There is nothing in any letter stating that if a suit is filed, until after the fact, the TWU has a right to come back and confiscate more shares as they see fit...PERIOD. If the TWU, lawyers, Labor Bureau etc all under estimated how much to withhold for litigation and possible settlement, then those individuals should be held accountable. We the membership had absolutely no say in the formula what so ever.