Rj's On The Mainline

[phllax]

This is a question for Chip and all of the other Airways pilots, whether furloughed or still on the line.

If when W&G were negotiating the new contract back in 98-99 and they came to you guys offering to have RJ's flown on the mainline at either F28 or Bae146 wages would ALPA have agreed to that? Was this an option that either side presented to the other, and if not, why didn't anybody think of this as a solution back then? If it was presented as an option, then which side had a problem with it?

I hope this doesn't start another turf war here.

 

[USA320Pilot]

PHLLAX:

RJs are permitted to be flown on the mainline per the supplemental restructuring agreement and must be in addition to minimum aircraft (now 279) fleet count. ALPA has offered that option in the past, but management rejected the proposal because the aircraft would be flown, maintained, and serviced by mainline employees at mainline rates.

In addition, any aircraft with a maximum certificated maximum gross takeoff weight greater than 86,000 pounds must be flown by the mainline.

Respectfully,

Chip

 

[Hope777]

So Chip, by that 86,000lbs number, the F-28's could have been flown as Express.
I'm sure that would have been cheaper then to pay you guys a minimum of $45,000.00 to sit home.

 

[ONTHESTREET]

This is a question for Chip and all of the other Airways pilots, whether furloughed or still on the line.

If when W&G were negotiating the new contract back in 98-99 and they came to you guys offering to have RJ's flown on the mainline at either F28 or Bae146 wages would ALPA have agreed to that? Was this an option that either side presented to the other, and if not, why didn't anybody think of this as a solution back then? If it was presented as an option, then which side had a problem with it?

I hope this doesn't start another turf war here.

This issue did come up during 2000. Company wanted 140 RJ's. W&G "threatened" that they would put the RJ's on mainline unless the pilots allowed them at the contract carriers.

Our collective feeling was no problem. We will gladly fly them......As I understand it W&G quickly withdrew that from the table. They never had any intention of flying those on mainline. F-28 pay was not slave labor enough to suit them and it would have meant that U would have to pay for the airplanes.

By the way, If the company wanted or needed rj's that bad all they ever had to do was buy them, U pilots are obligated to fly anything that the company owns, If the company wants piper cubs, we are obligated to fly them, pay rate is the only say that ALPA has about them.

 

[ITRADE]

So Chip, by that 86,000lbs number, the F-28's could have been flown as Express.
I'm sure that would have been cheaper then to pay you guys a minimum of $45,000.00 to sit home.

They could have but given the fact that basically NOBODY in the First world flies them and that Air Canada could not wait to get rid of them should tell you something about the way they currently perform.

Nothing short of a complete engine design change and part availability binge would save them.

 

[Hope777]

ITrade, correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Horizon still flying them? The F-28 was the backbone of the success of the Florida Shuttle, something management dismatled once AL took ove PI. Getting parts was a problem and the 1000 model was small but prefect for the SYR hub and the 4000's did well from BWI to smaller markets that could not support the 110 seat aircraft. The F-28 also saw service into CLT to places that now only have Dash service. Now management says we need a smaller Jet aircraft to fit into some markets that can not support our smallest Jet the A319. Bottom line is we had RJ's (F28) before anyone and management just made blew it. If they wanted they could have replaced the F-28 with CRJ's years ago but didnt want to pay the pilots that kind of money to fly a 50 seat Jet.

 

[Hope777]

Ok, after checking the Horizon website, they no longer fly the F-28s, they only flythe 70 seat CRJ's.

 

[ITRADE]

ITrade, correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Horizon still flying them? The F-28 was the backbone of the success of the Florida Shuttle, something management dismatled once AL took ove PI. Getting parts was a problem and the 1000 model was small but prefect for the SYR hub and the 4000's did well from BWI to smaller markets that could not support the 110 seat aircraft. The F-28 also saw service into CLT to places that now only have Dash service. Now management says we need a smaller Jet aircraft to fit into some markets that can not support our smallest Jet the A319. Bottom line is we had RJ's (F28) before anyone and management just made blew it. If they wanted they could have replaced the F-28 with CRJ's years ago but didnt want to pay the pilots that kind of money to fly a 50 seat Jet.

Much of this is true, but you must remember that we're talking about an airframe that 1) is no longer produced, 2) has high operating costs, 3) does not even have a manufacturer to provide full levels of service, 4) and is not even flying in the U.S., Canada, or really anywhere in North America.

The F-28 was a worthy idea 10 or so years ago, but it has since been replaced by a more efficient version. Only if you had a fleet of 40 or 50 of them could you even concievably run a fleet without a significant cost disadvantage.

 

[diogenes]

Trade, I agree with your assessment of the F28. The point I've tried to make is U HAD RJ's -the F28's - and MANAGEMENT pissed them away.

I'll surely conceed that between U inheriting the Fokker's in the PI buyout, and now, the Fokkers would have needed replacing.

But the concept was in hand in 1987.

 

[Hope777]

I agree with what both of you are saying. What I'm trying to say is that we had a plan in place that better suited capacity with demand. While the F28's were a prefect fit at the time, mangement just screwed up a good business plan. Yes the aircraft would have needed to be replaced just as the DC9's, B727's, B737-200's were replaced but the Business plan and concept of an RJ in Mailine was working. I just wished management and mainline marketing knew what the heck they were doing. As far as parts for the Fokker, Airbus isn't much better......

 

[diogenes]

Hope, as best I can tell, the marketing plan is to run whenever WN shows up, and the business plan is, the beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

[T-bone]

Hope, as best I can tell, the marketing plan is to run whenever WN shows up, and the business plan is, the beatings will continue until morale improves.

Sad as it is, this seams to be the truth!

 

[FLYLOW22]

This is a question for Chip and all of the other Airways pilots, whether furloughed or still on the line.

If when W&G were negotiating the new contract back in 98-99 and they came to you guys offering to have RJ's flown on the mainline at either F28 or Bae146 wages would ALPA have agreed to that? Was this an option that either side presented to the other, and if not, why didn't anybody think of this as a solution back then? If it was presented as an option, then which side had a problem with it?

I hope this doesn't start another turf war here.

LOA 79 was yet another opportunity for this pilot group to gain RJs with written flow back protections for any furloughed pilots. Half of the mainline MEC had their heads too far up their collective arses to see the benefits of having additional SJs to feed the network, fill bigger airplanes and have flow back protections in the event of a furlough. 3 of THOSE reps are now themselves furloughed because of their short sightedness... not to mention 1,876 other pilots who could have benefited mainline positions saved because U had the SJ feed it needed to maintain more that 279 hulls. Don't tell me I'm on crack...... look at Delta.

 

[USA320Pilot]

On Friday I had the opportunity to see the EMB-170 and I was surprised at the size of the jet.

This is a beautiful aircraft and with the MDA - AMR Eagel rates, the jet will be a competitive product with LCC's, however, it's not good for furloughed employees who will see a dramatic reduction in pay and benefits. Just like the IAM issue, this is another example of outsourcing, just like Kiosks and Internet booking.

US Airways senior vice president of corporate development and express Bruce Ashby told Aviation Daily that MDA will have about a 50% break even load factor. Meanwhile, David Neeleman told Aviation Week that JetBlue's EMB-190s would have a break even load factor of 60%.

MDA will be a competitive advantage and by September 2006 (35 months from now), is scheduled to represent 23% of the combined US Airways/MDA fleet.

Mainline - 279 aircraft
MDA - 85 aircraft

Respectfully,

Chip

 

[Colby]

Hey Chip,

Thankyou for the information....

According to AAEagle contract a 3year F/A make Approx $17.33p/h ( I have a friend that works for them and had him ask a F/A) and a 71 hour guarantee...HEY that's about $3.00 more than most Express starts out at...and about $2.00 less per hour than ATA F/A's start out at!! Hey, I can deal with that...Better than 8.00p/h working 40hrs a week 4 weeks a month....

But, according to most people here Management again must be lying!!! They lie to EVERYONE !!! Ha just kidding ..... I Must be PMSing