Swing States

[USAir757]

And those steps thus far have resulted in how many beheadings? Those steps have resulted how many US soldiers dying in non-combat situations? Those steps have done what to make American's safer from terrorist threats within our own borders?

Sounds to me like you're siding with these guys. Ok then smarty, so let's say we were completely wrong in this whole thing, because no matter how much we type back and forth here, it's obvious we don't see eye to eye on the fundamental issue of our going to war. So now we elect John Kerry, pull out, become less credible than the Bottle-Nosed Dolphin Society, and open the middle-east up to the terrorists, let them harbor, and come attack us again? Only this time, it's not going to be a 9/11... that was a warm-up drill. We're talking heavy destruction. So what is your solution? We did the ONLY thing we could have done in going into Iraq. It was the ONLY option. You sleep at night and curse the president and the Republicans, but the fact is they made the call to protect you, they made the call to keep America safe. You wouldn't have made that call. You would have been complacent and let them walk all over us, you would have said Ok to the UN and gone home with your tail between your legs, until it was too late and Saddam actually DID get his hands on a nuke, or chemical weapons, and used it on us. (Then you'd blame it on Bush for not acting). You would have waited for that to happen, the unthinkable, and then you would act... or maybe even then you wouldn't have. In that case, go hit the hash pipe and move to Alaska where people don't have to worry about choking to death on sarin gas while riding the subway to work, or having your insides disintegrated by Anthrax, or having a ten city blocks of Washington leveled by a nuclear bomb. You wouldn't have acted. You would have waited. Don't fire unless fired upon, right? I'm not willing to pay the price of thousands on thousands of innocent civilians in one strike so we can be popular in this world, or so we can have our decisions dictated by terrorists.

You know, the more I talk with you guys, the more I hope to God that Bush gets re-elected. Because I see how you think, and it is the scariest thing that I can think of for this country, and for our lives.

 

[Fly]

No....he needed to FINISH THE JOB in Afganistan before going over to Iraq and causing even more potential terrorists.

 

[KCFlyer]

First, there was never the assertation that iraq directly supported the 9/11 attacks from the white house, nor have I ever try to assert that either, but since you asked for information about the connection between al-queida and iraq,

Here you go

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...03/527uwabl.asp
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...04/152lndzv.asp
http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031201-123723-4738r.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/25/us.iraq.alqaeda/
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/calthom...t20040622.shtml

[post="177236"][/post]​

Hmmm...the weekly standard doesn't appear to be an "unbiased" source. At least the townhall site says it's a conservative site. And the CNN site, only cites comments from officials within the Bush administration. Remember how we were talking about the way people can cut out what they don't want you to see (the gun issue) so that your article will have "proof"? Didn't Feith eventually lose his job?

 

[FredF]

Please, please, please explain why we went after Sadaam but let Osama just slither away? Until Bush focuses on the absolutely, undeniable terrorist of 9/11, then I know he isn't the man to protect this country.

I would be, and was, behind him 150%when he went after Osama (as was the rest of the world)....but he lost focus of the REAL danger to this country to chase his pre-presidency dream to save his Daddy's honor.

[post="177240"][/post]​

There is still fighting going on in Afghanistan. The military is searching just as hard as they can to find that scumbag. There is not a whole lot of resistance there or reporters so it doesn't make the new that ofter, but we have not given up that search either.

There are tons of caves and passages to hide in, not to mention the people moving in and out of the neighboring countries.

They have not given up on him, and they never will.

 

[USAir757]

No....he needed to FINISH THE JOB in Afganistan before going over to Iraq and causing even more potential terrorists.

The job in Afghanistan could take years. According to the best intelligence in the world, we did not have that kind of time.

 

[FredF]

Then go read this one again.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html

It has a long laundry list of fact and date and people named it them. It details and chronicles contacts between iraq and al-queida

Oh yea,

The first article list Clint Administration reports of links between the two.

 

[KCFlyer]

The first article list Clint Administration reports of links between the two.

[post="177249"][/post]​

And your point is??? I didn't vote for Clinton either time...Voted for Perot when WMD's really WERE there in Iraq, and voted for Dole the second time around. If you'll recall, many said that Perot cost Bush 1 the election since many republicans voted for him over Bush. So I voted like "many" republicans in that election. I voted republican in 1996. And now I guess I could be considered a "republican for Kerry".

 

[local 12 proud]

those on here who like to say that by going to war and you know who you are, that we are creating more terrorist groups who hate us and want to hurt us seem to forget we did'nt start this "JIHAD" thier words not mine "HOLY WAR". i quite certain had we been attacked on the homeland post 9/11 many on here would also blame the current administration for not doing enough to act offensively to safeguard our country, you see you cant have it both ways! we either go after them, or they come after us. and for those who think our country is in the "toilet" why not just head north or better yet to france or germany, since life is so atrocious in this miserable country.

 

[KCFlyer]

those on here who like to say that by going to war and you know who you are, that we are creating more terrorist groups who hate us and want to hurt us seem to forget we did'nt start this "JIHAD" thier words not mine "HOLY WAR". i quite certain had we been attacked on the homeland post 9/11 many on here would also blame the current administration for not doing enough to act offensively to safeguard our country, you see you cant have it both ways! we either go after them, or they come after us. and for those who think our country is in the "toilet" why not just head north or better yet to france or germany, since life is so atrocious in this miserable country.

[post="177273"][/post]​

You know something though local....Even the jihadists didn't have a real problem with us going into afghanistan. And I don't think they have done enough to protect US citizens within our borders, unless you count stripping many of our rights from us in the name of "protection from terrorists". And our president didn't do much to dispel any feelings of a Holy War with his comments about God guiding him into battle.

So it's "America, love it or leave it" all over again, eh? Here's something for you to think about - is it wrong for someone to feel that this country is in the toilet? If so, how do you explain the thoughts of those who launched the revolutionary war? They thought their country was heading for the toilet too. They did something about it. Today we call them our "Founding Fathers".

Do you think that because one doesn't like the direction that their countries leaders are taking it that they don't love their country? I'd submit to you that most of them love their country more than you do.

American History is full of examples of true patriots who didn't like where their country was being taken and did something about it. But...they don't agree with your guy, so they ought to leave the country. Who else should leave the country? Blacks? Arabs? Left handed people? I guess I'll leave you with the words of Woody Guthrie - "This land is your land, this land is my land". Sorry pal, I ain't leaving.

 

[local 12 proud]

kc first off i never claimed i was a "bush" man so lets get that one straight first off. this country was founded not from fighting within but from a desire to be free from the tyranny of the crown, you may want to brush up on your history a little. so if i say you think this country suck's "in the toilet" then dont let the door hit you in the a$$ that makes me a racist? then you are a nitwit in my opinion. yea i dont like the direction or agree with every policy of my government all the time but do i think my country is in the "toilet"? NOOOOOO I DO NOT, why dont you go visit sudan or so many other places in this world and see what in the "toliet" looks like. if you could do a better job then run for office, or perhaps your one of those who believes the world owes you something!

 

[KCFlyer]

kc first off i never claimed i was a "bush" man so lets get that one straight first off. this country was founded not from fighting within but from a desire to be free from the tyranny of the crown,

[post="177304"][/post]​

Don't look now, but Bush is taking the country back to the "tyranny of the crown" in the form of the imperial presidency.

BTW, this country owes me nothing. But I won't blindly follow a leader who, by all apperances, was out for world domination. And just a thought, but Cheney said today that a vote for Kerry was a vote for another terrorist attack. Does that mean the soldiers over there who vote for the democratic candidate can come home, since they obviously lack the patriotism to properly serve their country?

 

[FredF]

And your point is???

[post="177252"][/post]​

My point very simply is this. I made the assertion that the war in Iraq is part of the war on terror(by the way Kerry also made this point in his speach yesterday). You challenged that. Fine.

I posted several links backing up that assertation, to which you replied that they were from biased sources or from the Bush Administration.

My followup was that there were the same claims being made by the Clinton Administration and there was one very good post with a detailed chronological events and facts.

Claiming that you did not vote for Clinton or anything else has no meaning.

My point still stands. The war in IRAQ is part of the war against terror and have displayed many links to back that up and not all from the Bush Administration.

Are you going to conceed that maybe there actually is something to that assertation or not?

 

[FredF]

KC, you asked me to back up a statement I made and I have, now I ask the same from you.

And I don't think they have done enough to protect US citizens within our borders, unless you count stripping many of our rights from us in the name of "protection from terrorists".

[post="177289"][/post]​

You make this statement about stripping rights, I ask you to tell us what rights you have had stripped away from you?

 

[USAir757]

Even the jihadists didn't have a real problem with us going into afghanistan.

Blantantly incorrect. Jihadists hate America, and the thing they hate most about America is that we have Americans in the middle east at all.

And I don't think they have done enough to protect US citizens within our borders, unless you count stripping many of our rights from us in the name of "protection from terrorists"

I'd like to hear some of your real suggestions to protect the people in this country without stripping us of any civil liberties.

Here's something for you to think about - is it wrong for someone to feel that this country is in the toilet?

No, it's not wrong. It's just ignorant and unappreciative of what we have. We live in the best country in the world, in better conditions and with more rights and liberties than any other country in the world. To suggest that the country is "in the toilet" suggests ignorance to me, because that person has obviously never experienced what "in the toilet" truly means.

Who else should leave the country? Blacks? Arabs? Left handed people? I guess I'll leave you with the words of Woody Guthrie - "This land is your land, this land is my land". Sorry pal, I ain't leaving.

The people who should leave are those who clearly do not think this country is hands down the best place for them to live. That regardless of your personal opinion, you wouldn't stoop as low as saying your president is out for "world domination"... I mean where do you people come up with this stuff? You think this guy is out to dominate the world? In 4-8 years? Read into your history books on that one bud... you won't find anything like that in there.

And by the way KC, you're right. This country doesn't owe you anything. Except for one vote to put towards who you think should run this country after next January. But if you'd revisit your post from August 20... you DO think this country owes you something.

You know, I work in an area that provides health care for those without it...you know, welfare. YOu know where a lot of our clients come from? Walmart...provider of many of those "jobs" that Bush says he created. They don't make much to start, and don't qualify for benefits for 2 years, and even when they do, their insurance plan doesn't cover pre-natal care. I guess those that work at Walmart shouldn't have sex so they don't become pregnant. But...they don't have much else to do - and they exercised a good "pro life" stance by having the baby. Guess low income folks should have their babies but give them away if they can't afford them...I hear there's a good market for white babies out there. But the minority kids aren't so popular, but God works in funny ways....they all seem to love their babies. But those same folks are paying taxes too.

Other clients include former Sprint employees who no longer have health care (they haven't worked at Walmart long enough I guess). Because their jobs were shipped overseas in the name of "shareholder value"...and their former employer committing $64 million dollars for the naming rights to the newly approved arena in downtown. YOu know what happens when the largest private employer in town trims the staff by half? You have a lot of people who'd love to employ that ability to go to work every day...but there AREN'T ANY JOBS.

Still other clients ask us for help with their prescription drugs...they can't understand the new Medicare plan. We try to show them. But they are pretty confused (ever try to explain something complex to a 75-80 year old??) Most leave fairly disheartened when they find that the plan "saves" them about a buck ninety five. That's because the drug maker raised the price, so the "discount" amounted to pretty much the status quo.

You think this country owes you jobs, benefits, insurance, prescription drug plans, medicare... all that doesn't mean a thing if our country isn't safe. That is priority number one, and with someone in office who cracks under pressure, is showing signs of backing down on this war, and changes his mind on everything, the safety of this country will be in serious jeopardy.

 

[KCFlyer]

Are you going to conceed that maybe there actually is something to that assertation or not?

[post="177509"][/post]​

No, I don't think I will. Because I don't think that Iraq posed an imminent threat to America - that's one of the two requirements that Congress had when they granted Bush the right to go to war. The other one was "unless the situation cannot be resolved through diplomacy" (which they didn't even attempt - relying instead on "diplomacy hasn't worked, why try it again). The justifications you cite were all past the start of the war. IMHO, what Congress wanted was for that kind of checking to be done before sending in the first troops. They didn't. They changed the purpose of the war three times or so until the settled on "liberating the Iraqi people". Sorry, but that wasn't one of the reasons that Congress granted Bush the power to go to war. They also didn't prove that Iraq posed an "imminent threat" to the USA. And when pressed (after the fact), they still have some nebulous connections between Iraq and the 9/11 attack. Heck..why stop where they did. checking further might show that the Iraqis sold al queda guns, bios, and chemicals that the US sold Iraq.