Swing States
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KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,180
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FredF said:
Fred let me put it to you in a manner that you might better understand...
Let's say you've won me over...by God, the war in Iraq just had to take place because Saddam was hoarding weapons of mass destruction and buying plane tickets for people tied to a terrorist group who might use them against Americans. Key word in that statement is "might".
Do your rights under the constitution of the United States mean so little to you that you don't mind giving your government the authority to violate those rights any time that they see fit? We're not talking about the "rights" of suspected terrorists...we're talking about YOUR rights. You may not have lost them...yet. But just as Saddam and terrorists, the possiblity that your president has put in place might allow them to be used against you, a God fearing upstanding citizen, because you checked out a book on advanced weaponry from your local library.
Quite frankly, I find the latter to more frightening that the former.
I do understand what you are saying, I am just trying to find someone complaining about it that has had it happen.
I might get killed on the freeway on the way home this afternoon, but I can't dwell on that.
The Government might check up on you, but how does that take away freedoms from you?
The TSA is all over LAX. I know I just had to fly home from there for the second time in 6 weeks, yet I was still able to get on the plane. They are jerks for wanting me to take off my shoes, but I still got through security and on the plane coming home.
I had to show my ID to about 4 people but I still got on the plane to come home.
Where did I loose any of my freedoms in the process? It was a pain, but I still got on the plane.
If you want to go down the yet path, I am scared that I will not be able to go see the doctor of my choice and have them decide on what medical treatment I should get. I am afraid of Kerry and the Government making that decision for me. It has not happend YET but that is what Kerry and wants to do.
I am afraid of loosing my second amendment rights. It has not happened YET but they keep trying.
I am afraid of having more of my income confiscated by the tax increases that Kerry is talking about. It has not happened YET but I am sure it is coming if he is elected.
KC, I noticed that you did not answer the other question as to why telling the UN what our plans were and asking for help could not be the same thing.
I would really like to hear the answer to that one as well, other than we did not have proof even though we did.
I might get killed on the freeway on the way home this afternoon, but I can't dwell on that.
The Government might check up on you, but how does that take away freedoms from you?
The TSA is all over LAX. I know I just had to fly home from there for the second time in 6 weeks, yet I was still able to get on the plane. They are jerks for wanting me to take off my shoes, but I still got through security and on the plane coming home.
I had to show my ID to about 4 people but I still got on the plane to come home.
Where did I loose any of my freedoms in the process? It was a pain, but I still got on the plane.
If you want to go down the yet path, I am scared that I will not be able to go see the doctor of my choice and have them decide on what medical treatment I should get. I am afraid of Kerry and the Government making that decision for me. It has not happend YET but that is what Kerry and wants to do.
I am afraid of loosing my second amendment rights. It has not happened YET but they keep trying.
I am afraid of having more of my income confiscated by the tax increases that Kerry is talking about. It has not happened YET but I am sure it is coming if he is elected.
KC, I noticed that you did not answer the other question as to why telling the UN what our plans were and asking for help could not be the same thing.
I would really like to hear the answer to that one as well, other than we did not have proof even though we did.
Asking permission and saying if you don't go along with me, I'll do it anyway, are NOT the same thing. If my son asks for the car, and then informs me that he's taking it if I say "no" anyway....I can assure you THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING (and he's not getting the car)
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,180
- 1,420
Just like terrorism, it's too late once it has happened, is it not?
We're not talking about airport screeners...we are talking about the governments right to violate your fourth and first ammendment rights. Imagine being investigated simply because of your posts on this message board. It can happen.
Sort of off topic, but I was on a cruise last March and several Canadians were on the ship. I'd heard the horror stories of people dying before they could get scheduled for surgery, so they came to the US to get their medical care. Without fail, they all laughed.
You haven't lost them. You have lost your first and fourth ammendment rights - but that doesn't seem to bother you.
You must be upper income then, because Kerry said he'd roll back the tax cuts for the top levels.
The "proof" (still dubious) that we have hasn't surfaced until a year after the "mission was accomplished". In fact, what "proof" we did show them was proven false shortly after the start of the war.
The US going in and telling the UN what they were going to do and then asking for help isn't going in with the intent of making a compelling enough case for the other nations to see and understand exactly why your plans were valid. It was going in -alone - that you were going to invade Iraq, then asking "are you with us or against us".
local 12 proud
Veteran
- Mar 5, 2004
- 4,265
- 4
[ KC i accept your apology and also would like to extend my apologies for labeling you as a nitwit, you are certainly entitled to your opinions as we all are. i believe you are a true patriot and love this country as much as i do, else we would'nt be having this debate!
Side note to local12 - I am bolding this because I want it to be easier to see. In rereading an earlier post I made, I can see how it might be interpreted that I was insinuating that you were a racist. That was not my intention. My posts tend to "run long" and in an attepmt at brevity, I left out some words, that in retrospect, may have been construed to imply you are a racist. I tried to remove those comments from my post and could not, but wanted to express my apologies either way.
Side note to local12 - I am bolding this because I want it to be easier to see. In rereading an earlier post I made, I can see how it might be interpreted that I was insinuating that you were a racist. That was not my intention. My posts tend to "run long" and in an attepmt at brevity, I left out some words, that in retrospect, may have been construed to imply you are a racist. I tried to remove those comments from my post and could not, but wanted to express my apologies either way.
[post="177581"][/post]
[/quote]KCFlyer said:
Not true. There was credible information linking iraq and al-queida long before we went to the UN to ask for help.
Again, the Secretary of Sate, not the UN ambassador laid out everything before the un and asked for help. Those nations, france and germany and russia thumbed their noses at us. We did not thumb our noses at them. They are the ones that decided not to stand behind us, they are the ones telling us not to do it and anyone that tells you different is trying to get Kerry elected because they know that to tell the truth, only supports President Bush.
Again, you are basing that statement with the benefit of hindsight. But where there's a will, there's a way. And Saddam had all the will in the world to help aid terrorism against the US.
We luckily still have a judicial branch of government that is still empowered with the ability to determine whether or not your rights have been violated, and if so, whether it was an acceptable reason or not. This is a new world we live in, and with terrorists amongst us within our borders, what other choice do we have in order to protect ourselves? Come search me, search my house, look at the books I'm reading, investigate me all you want. I've got nothing to hide. But at the same time, you'd better be investigating my single-male, middle-eastern, cash paying neighbor leasing an apartment month to month and taking lots of one-way flights... you get the idea. I'm willing to let the government protect me, even if it means I have to give up some of what we have treasured here for so long. Just think, we could have prevented 9/11 if we had the ability to do these things. Safeguarding our lives is more important than anything.
This country is so whacked and not impartial anymore. If you're a Republican politician...you sure better vote along party lines or suffer the wrath of the party. Same thing goes for the Democrats. It's so sad to see us screw up our country, but I think this is exactly what is happening to us. No one thinks for themselves, they just do whatever the party tells them. 
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,180
- 1,420
Nor do I have anything to hide, but the patriot act doesn't say that the government has the right to void the first and fouth ammendment rights of any specfic group...the way it is written, they have the right to "investigate" this 47 year old brown haired brown eyed German America because he posts remarks on an internet message board that do not follow the "company line" of the country. Why, here's a snipet from an article in todays Kansas City Star:
Imagine....someone wants to protest the administrations policies at a campaign rally and they end up with the FBI visiting them at home. Score - Free Speech - 0, Fight on terrorism - 1.
USAir...so if the government decided that it was best if you gave up your rights to bear arms so that the country is safer from terrorism, you'd have no problem, right? How about you Fred...that sound like a winner?
TWAnr said:
Except if you actaully read it they said that there was no direct evedence of a connection between Iraq and 9/11. The commission did find however that there were connections between iraq and al-queida.
As shown here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mcc...00406170840.asp
To paraphrase you. Reagarless of how many time you try not to believe it, it is still true.
KC Be sure you read this one here!
Another interesting read:
http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include...&storyid=670120
You have a point there KC. And I'll tell you honestly, as long as our borders are playing the loosey-goosey game, and people are still able to sneak into this country in port containers and with false ID, then we have no way of protecting you and I from these monsters. I know it is difficult to swallow because our country was built on these beliefs... and principles... that guarantee us life, liberty, property, pursuit of happiness, etc. But as I said before, we live in another world now.
I think maybe because I am younger I may be more willing to accept the loss of some of these rights. But nonetheless, it will be a difficult transformation this country has to take. There's no other way to protect ourselves. Buses, trains, subways, conventions, sporting events, etc.... how else can we protect them?
