The Blind Leading The Stupid!

[jetbox]

Anybody hear about Ontario's M. N. R. new requirement for any Astar operator wanting to work forestry this summer in Ontario?????
"In the interest of safety the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources is requiring the compliance with and installation of the following:
ASB 29.00.07 Hydraulic Power Improvement of the "hydraulic cutoff" function is mandatory.
SB 63.00.08 Main Rotor drive (poly-V type Drive belt) will become mandatory as stated by Transport Canada"
I wonder which idiot in the M.N.R. let himself be conviced that these two modifications would make Astars any safer. :down: :down: :down:
It really tics me off when customers decide they know more about the helicopters than the operators :angry: :angry: :angry:
Gee, I wonder if Eurocopter had anything to do with this. They get to sell us even more overpriced parts that we don't friggin need!!!!!!!

 

[skullcap]

Yeah is frustrating but the electrical shutoff kit is free and the v-belt kit is a good idea and should have been done years ago, the stupid little belt is good for very few things, maybe sweatbands for the habs, who knows.

What surprised me was that the mnr knew about the sb for electrical shutoff before we did, kinda hard to be proactive when that shite goes on.

GO FLAMES GO

 

[MagSeal]

I agree with you Skullcap, the belt is long overdue. Overdue by the customers to install it more though. It has been available as a modification for some time now. It's sad that it took a serious accident to open up eyes. As for the wiring fix for the other thing, it's apparently quite easy to do as well.

In response to Jetbox....I guess since MNR will be paying for the flight time of those contracted to them, I guess they can call the shots. I feel they are being on the far end of the safety spectrum, can't really blame them. Nobody wants to have any connection to liability.

I also look at the request, and it's no different than the C28 thing years ago, no different than the Lycoming problems. Or even when a customer requests floats for a job or sling gear and bambi bucket. This is just another operational requirement if you want to work for them. Show up with-out what the job requires, you're SOL.

 

[snowedin]

In response to skullcap and others, remember that the MNR is customer but operator as well...they do have A-Stars in their fleet as well. This may account for what some percieve to be fishy foresight??!!

 

[jetbox]

I respect both your opinions boys but I disagree on the Poly-V belt mod. I've been in this business for many many years and worked on many different Astars and I've only come across 1 belt failure which resulted in the pilot flying back to staging so I could replace it. As far as I'm concerned, those green belts are just as safe when installed and maintained i.a.w. the maintenance manual.
Besides, the M.N.R. accident had nothing to do with the belt failing, it had to do with the hydraulic system malfunctioning after the belt failiure.
The results would have been the same if he'd had the poly-v belt installed but suffered a loss of hydraulic fluid, punctured hydraulic hose etc.
I think installing a different kind of belt is pointless because it still doesn't solve the "flipping upside down" issue after a hydraulic failure and, the operators who don't keep the proper tension on the green belt are going to be the same operators who don't properly maintain the new poly-v belt!!!!
Besides, why are we wasting our time with a friggin belt anyways, that pump should be gear driven in the first place!!!!

Magseal, I agree with you that the M.N.R pays the bill so they sould call the shots but I find it frustrating that the federal government tells the general public that a pilot with 100hrs of training is qualified to fly your wife and kids but is not qulified to fly the employees of the M.N.R. or any other provincial forestry department.
At this moment, Transport Canada says that the general public is safe flying in Astars in their current modification status (and I agree) but the Ontario government doesn't think so.
What's basically happening is that the government has two standards, one for you, your wife and kids and friends etc. and a higher one for its employees. If the Astar's status quo isn't good enough for provincial employees, why is it good enough for the rest of the population. Does the M.N.R. know something that the Transportation Safety Board doesn't!!!!!
If those two modifications are proven to make Astars safer, I'll be the first in line to buy and install them, but if that's the case, why hasn't Transport Canada and the T.S.B. said so already??????
(there will probably be an AD coming out soon regarding these I'm sure!!!)

One thing is for sure, the habs are going to have a healthy supply of belts for sweatbands soon 😀 😀 😀

 

[amodao]

Do you think that if the two mods are incorporated TC will ditch the AD?
I haven't seen any documentation from TC regarding the results of the hydraulic problems investigation. Lets see proof that there is a definable problem and that these mods. once incoporated are the solution.

 

[T-rex]

First of all, the 'green' belts do break, our company had a hydraulic failure just last week due to failed belt!

Second of all, what do you mean by "flipping upside down"? I was doing 'hydraulic off' training this weekend and we didn't flip anywhere?!?

Lets get over the fact, there will be not shaft driven pump for a while, live with it!

As Maggie put it, different customers require different machine specs!!

 

[jetbox]

T-REX, " Flipping upside down" meaning losing control of the A/C due to uncontrollable forces following a hydraulic failure or haven't you read the news lately. What do you think this whole hydraulic system fiasco is all about.
Of course you didn't flip upside down, it's hardly ever happened!!!!! We did a whole bunch of hydraulics off training this spring and had no problems whatsoever just like last year and the year before and like every other Astar operator in the world!! That's exactly my point !!!!!
Why are we (and the M.N.R for that matter!) focusing so much on this stupid belt when the belt isn't the problem to begin with!!! :down: :down: :down: :down:

 

[MagSeal]

Jetbox, I don't disagree with anything you said there. You've got valid points. I've always said that proper maintenance on the belt and good up to date training is your best defence. But, I am one to believe that if there is an improvement out there, use it. Cost shouldn't be a factor for anyones safety.

I believe that something, that has a profound effect on many fronts, should be made availabale and affordable to all. Not saying free, but at least a great price that will attract everyone into doing it. (deja vue...I think I said that once before on another topic 😀 )

 

[frenchwrench]

I have only seen one broken belt in almost 15 years.I think if people keep them clean and correctly tightened to the 103 mm .then that would help also.I see the hyd system works as the rotor spools down,so there must be sufficient flow to function the system,so Is the belt slipping??

 

[jetbox]

Thanks Magseal, I agree that if a modification will improve the safety of the A/C then cost shouldn't be an issue and that's exactly how we've approched our fleet since day one. I simply haven't seen any documentation that shows the Poly-v belt being any more reliable than the green belts.
As a matter of fact, I just found out 2 hrs ago about a Poly-v belt failing on a newer Astar, so how much of an improvement can they be????

 

[frenchwrench]

Perhaps an Ontario only surcharge added to the ticket of $50 an hour to recover the cost of the mod and they might get the hint

 

[skullcap]

Amodeo(by the way what is an amodeo?)

It is our understanding that the two sb's will be AD's very soon.

I don't have too many issues with the belt other than it has taken too long to evolve to something descent.

I do wish they would install a hydraulic system that had a larger capacity to compensate for high disc loading flight regimes and eliminate the "servo transparency phenomeona" . Perhaps borrow the good old leaky 204 system which works fine. There is no need to search for what if's about servo transperency, it has caused accidents/deaths and will continue to do so to unsuspecting or poorly trained or hotdogging pilots.

Don't let the hydraulic failure scenario take away from this dangerous flight charectoristic(sp?), keep the gaurd up, specially in the B model.


sc

 

[jetbox]

I know I'm going to sound like a real jerk Skullcap but I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone that ends up in servo transparancy. The only time servo transparancy is an issue is when the pilot is exceeding the design limitations of the A/C. You'll never experience that phenomenon as long as you fly by the book and if you decide to hot dog or fool around, then don't complain that it's a design weakness.
Astars have been around long enough for everybody to be aware of S.T. and we all know what causes it.
Servo transparancy doesn't cause any accidents, irresponsible piloting does!!!!!

While we're at it, why don't we install bigger transmissions on Bell 206's to accomodate the assh-les who think it's ok to pull 110 % torque every lift, or install stronger blades on Hughes 500's to accomodate the guys that consistently over gross the disk and then wonder why the friggin blades are breaking off!!!!!!!

Fly the A/C like you're supposed to and none of these problems will be an issue!!!

 

[MagSeal]

not sounding like a jerk to me. common sense should always prevail right?