Tulsa To Get Insourced 737 Wheel Maintenance

[FWAAA]

And pay does directly reflect a person's ability/desire to do his/her job. (Yes, there are always people in every profession that are the exception to this rule.) Does a person have his/her car repaired by someone who is standing outside a HomeDepot? How about having your eyes done with lazer surgery? My point is that you get what you pay for.

No one person ever implied that being a foreigner, regardless of their skin color, makes that person anyless competent. What makes a person competent is their training and skill level. By sending work overseas to facilities that do not have the same standards is the problem. Paying someone who is willing to work because they can pay that person dirt cheap will not increase that person's desire to become more competent.

[post="250084"][/post]​

You may not have meant to imply that foreign = lack of skill, but that's the way it sounded.

If we were talking substandard wage rates (when measured against other wages in that country), then I might agree with you. There are countries where 10% of your pay might be 10 times that country's average wage. So although that labor is cheap (compared to your wages), it is probably highly motivated. For example, instead of paying $30/hour here, an airline finds people willing to do the same work for $3/hour in a country where the average wage is $0.30/hour. So long as that person possesses the equivalent of an A&P, what's the problem? That AMT would be living like a king on the $3/hr.

Lower standards? Sure, that's a problem. Impose standards. But lower wage rates don't equal lower standards. If that were true, then WN's line mechanics (who, of course, make significantly more money than AA's line mechanics) would equal much higher standards than at AA. And that's not the case.

Again, foreign airlines all around the world fly sophisiticated aircraft every day. And they get them fixed every day. All around the world. If it were a real problem, then those foreign airlines' airplanes would be falling out of the sky and suffering major maintenance-related failures.

But they aren't.

As Former ModerAAtor posted, US domestic airlines seem to have suffered the more notorious maintenance-related disasters.

As to unions being able to affect the outcome - Doesn't matter to me which union represents employees. If you want AMFA to replace the TWU - hope you're successful. If you want to keep the TWU - good luck as well. The pragmatic view is that it really doesn't matter. According to many here, the TWU hasn't positively affected the outcome for 20+ years. And the undisputed fact is that AMFA doesn't yet have much of a track record at affecting the outcome (either positively or negatively). How much benefit can the union possibly be when the choices presented are:

1. Accept massive pay cuts, work rule changes and furloughs

or

2. We'll abrogate your contract in bankruptcy and pay you what we want or, if you don't accept that, we'll simply outsource all maintenance.

What a crappy set of choices. Hardly worth paying anyone two hours of wages per month, in my opinion. So far, I'm in the minority.

When there's a growing pie to be divided, collective bargaining might be worth those two hours of pay.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

You may not have meant to imply that foreign = lack of skill, but that's the way it sounded.

If we were talking substandard wage rates (when measured against other wages in that country), then I might agree with you. There are countries where 10% of your pay might be 10 times that country's average wage. So although that labor is cheap (compared to your wages), it is probably highly motivated. For example, instead of paying $30/hour here, an airline finds people willing to do the same work for $3/hour in a country where the average wage is $0.30/hour. So long as that person possesses the equivalent of an A&P, what's the problem? That AMT would be living like a king on the $3/hr.

Lower standards? Sure, that's a problem. Impose standards. But lower wage rates don't equal lower standards. If that were true, then WN's line mechanics (who, of course, make significantly more money than AA's line mechanics) would equal much higher standards than at AA. And that's not the case.

Again, foreign airlines all around the world fly sophisiticated aircraft every day. And they get them fixed every day. All around the world. If it were a real problem, then those foreign airlines' airplanes would be falling out of the sky and suffering major maintenance-related failures.

But they aren't.

As Former ModerAAtor posted, US domestic airlines seem to have suffered the more notorious maintenance-related disasters.

As to unions being able to affect the outcome - Doesn't matter to me which union represents employees. If you want AMFA to replace the TWU - hope you're successful. If you want to keep the TWU - good luck as well. The pragmatic view is that it really doesn't matter. According to many here, the TWU hasn't positively affected the outcome for 20+ years. And the undisputed fact is that AMFA doesn't yet have much of a track record at affecting the outcome (either positively or negatively). How much benefit can the union possibly be when the choices presented are:

1. Accept massive pay cuts, work rule changes and furloughs

or

2. We'll abrogate your contract in bankruptcy and pay you what we want or, if you don't accept that, we'll simply outsource all maintenance.

What a crappy set of choices. Hardly worth paying anyone two hours of wages per month, in my opinion. So far, I'm in the minority.

When there's a growing pie to be divided, collective bargaining might be worth those two hours of pay.

[post="250269"][/post]​

fwaa, I see your example of what is considered great pay in a dirt poor country versus great pay in the U.S.A. But I do not agree that the U.S. should be held hostage because of our cost of living. Why should we be brought down to third world standards instead of bringing third world standards up to ours?

Foreign carriers do work on their own aircraft and they don't fall out of the sky. But a large part of foreign carriers, ie. Russia and China did not have to report their accidents to the world to see like the U.S. has. Russia's and China's fleets were crap and many accidents happened but their is no media there to cover the accidents.

As for standards perhaps that will happen when something bad occurs. I do not wish this to happen but I have a feeling in time it will. And then the knee jerk reactions will start.

And as for unions affecting outcomes to outsourcing I have participated AMFA organized rallys against FAR Part 145, (which covers outsourcing), in Washington DC on my own dime. The twu, iam, ibt were all welcomed to attend to help bring attention to this issue. They were all no shows. Why? Because they don't care and AMFA does. I would rather pay two hours pay a month to an organization that cares about our proud profession and wants to protect it instead of pay the same to unelected, unaccountable sell outs like the twu. The twu can't even answer a simple question I posted under the DEMOCRACY thread.

 

[mweiss]

But I do not agree that the U.S. should be held hostage because of our cost of living. Why should we be brought down to third world standards instead of bringing third world standards up to ours?

You end up ultimately meeting somewhere in the middle. Imagine the standards of living as if it were a huge body of water. Within that body of water, there are various dams around countries, which have been established based on market conditions that existed in the past. The biggest barriers (i.e., those dams with the highest walls) have high trade barriers, either through legislation or through the cost of transportation. Within those dams, water can accumulate at higher levels than outside of them.

As protectionism has decreased, and as the cost of transportation has decreased, those dams have lowered. As that happens, you begin to have water flowing from the higher areas to the lower areas. If transportation and trade were absolutely free, the water levels would reach a perfect equilibrium. That is, the place that had a low water level would accumulate water, and the place that had a high water level would lose water.

To bring the analogy back to the standard of living, there is no question that the US's standard of living would fall, though not to the level of, say, India. At the same time, India's standard of living would rise, though not to the level of the US.

Because transportation is not free, the levels will never be equal. The standard of living of the US would remain somewhat higher than the standard of living of India, though perhaps not as high as we have grown accustomed to enjoying.

...a large part of foreign carriers, ie. Russia and China did not have to report their accidents to the world to see like the U.S. has.

That's two countries out of well over a hundred. Surely you're not suggesting that every other country out there is like Russia and China, are you?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

mweiss, "That's two countries out of well over a hundred. Surely you're not suggesting that every other country out there is like Russia and China, are you?"

No I am not suggesting this. What I am saying is that Russia and China combined account for a LARGE part of global aviation. Their standards are not what the FAA would call top quality.

Again, you get what you pay for. Pay directly affects quality and professionalism. Will the airlines ever understand this? I hope they do. Unfortunately USAir hasn't.

 

[mweiss]

...you get what you pay for. Pay directly affects quality and professionalism.

[post="250549"][/post]​

Locally speaking, yes. Nonetheless, you still have yet to explain why someone who earns ten times the average local wage, but happens to earn half of what you do (at much less than ten times the average local wage), will do a worse job than you.

 

[Mark Inman]

Do you really think the people running this country and controlling the money want the standard of living to be equal in all countries. If so only for the workers. Their damn is going to remain and grow in size. How much it grows is up to us and how much we are willing to do to hold them to fair treatment of there workers. We have a local President at TWU 514 who when he took office said it is obvious to him that most of the machanic in the TWU wanted out. We had senior VP of American Airlines along with TWU International officers who lied to the NMB about how many people are in the craft and class at AA to stop the vote. Now they want us to believe we are best friends with the company and are united with a common interest. If this were true the company would not have been so dead set against snap backs and or sharing in the success. You win loyalty not scare people into it. We provide a world class product at our maintaince bases at AA and world class turn times. The M.O.’s will never compete with that with there 100% annual turn over. Craft Unions with common goals and interests are the only way to have the strength we need to accomplish this.

 

[mweiss]

Do you really think the people running this country and controlling the money want the standard of living to be equal in all countries.

No. I just don't think they can stop it. They can slow it down for a bit, but that's it.

Craft Unions with common goals and interests are the only way to have the strength we need to accomplish this.

[post="250615"][/post]​

It will help to slow things down, but until the craft union covers the entire planet, the pressure will remain.

 

[eolesen]

No I am not suggesting this. What I am saying is that Russia and China combined account for a LARGE part of global aviation. Their standards are not what the FAA would call top quality.

[post="250549"][/post]​

Not sure I agree there.

Russia and China are growing segments of the global aviation market (mainly because of the introduction of private enterprise during the past 10 years), but North America, Europe, and Asia/Pacific (minus intra-China) still make up the bulk of the commercial aviation marketplace.