TWA mgmt - last good CEO?

[Dont call me Shirley]

The thread about the fate of the ex TWA 757-231s has drifted to the mistakes and abuses of TWA management; here is a new thread on the latter (in the hope that 757 thread can be back on track). The problems resulting from Icahn's "leadership" are well known and much discussed. While we can certainly keep kicking Carl and Karibu (sp?) around, let's also look at the past (with and/or without rose-tinted lenses) and discuss who was the last man at the helm who was any good. (Full disclosure: I don't know enough TWA history to know.)

Tillinghast (in the safe days of regulation)?
Smart (who took the wheel as the industry changed radically)?
Hughes????

 

[lpbrian]

The thread about the fate of the ex TWA 757-231s has drifted to the mistakes and abuses of TWA management; here is a new thread on the latter (in the hope that 757 thread can be back on track). The problems resulting from Icahn's "leadership" are well known and much discussed. While we can certainly keep kicking Carl and Karibu (sp?) around, let's also look at the past (with and/or without rose-tinted lenses) and discuss who was the last man at the helm who was any good. (Full disclosure: I don't know enough TWA history to know.)

Tillinghast (in the safe days of regulation)?
Smart (who took the wheel as the industry changed radically)?
Hughes????

who was the last CEO? Was it a pilot? No wonder TWA floundered. No offense, but pilots know no more about running an airline than a ticket agent. Or a ramper. or a flight attendant...

 

[TWAnr]

Jack Frye.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Jack Frye.

Ouch! We'll he must have done something right for the company to limp along for so long after he left!

 

[kirkpatrick]

but pilots know no more about running an airline than a ticket agent. Or a ramper. or a flight attendant...

Maybe not because he's a pilot, but nothing prevents an individual pilot, ticket agent, ramper or flight attendant from having what it takes to be a good CEO.

MK

 

[JFK777]

TWA was an airline with an illustrious past, a legacy which would in the end help kill it. First the main party in the death of TWA was Icahn, no question about it. The debt of that buyout, the underinvestment in the fleet just killed it. The sale of the LHR to AA also killed off the main source of gravy. Keeping the 747's too long also didn't help. These were among the first 747's made and TWA kept them flyig until 1998, almost 30 years. After LHR was sold many of the routes those 747's were used on couldn't handle then year round. From JFK to CDG, MAD, FRA, MXP, Athens, Cairo and Tel Aviv those planes were too big or unable to do their job. On the Tel Aviv Run TWA did get some 747-200B, which could fly from Israel to JFK nonstop, its very hot in Tel Aviv. The 747-100 had to stop in Shannon to refuel from Israel to JFK. The last flight from JFK to Israel were on 767-300ER which could go nonstop both ways. Only if TWA, Trans World, had looked at its name and flown to Brazil or Argentina or to Japan. It is a shame that after the US returned Okinawa back to the Japanesse in 1973, TWA stopped flying to Asia.

 

[galleyguy4u2]

And AA made false promises to the TWA employees about fair and equitable intergration. The IAM surrendered our SCOPE clause without permission from the membership, hence the destruction of the lives of some of the best airline people in the industry. I blame both the IAM and APFA as well as AA.

 

[Hackman]

And AA made false promises to the TWA employees about fair and equitable intergration. The IAM surrendered our SCOPE clause without permission from the membership, hence the destruction of the lives of some of the best airline people in the industry. I blame both the IAM and APFA as well as AA.

You have no one to blame but Uncle Carl and his greed for TWA's demise and the destruction of livelihoods. AA (Carty) stupidly bought the whole defunct airline, instead of letting it continue into Chapter 7 liquidation and buying the routes it wanted. Its the main reason AA is $20 Billion in debt.

I still fail to understand how former TWA employees feel they are entitled to full seniority, when AMR Eagle employees do not receive it when they cross over to AA.

TWA's was run into the ground by Icahn and inept management, be upset with them, not AA or the unions. TWA was a bankrupt carrier going to liquidate, but AA stepped in and gave TWA employees a pay raise and jobs for a lot longer than anyone would have gotten at a TWA liquidation fire sale. Feel fortunate for once and stop crying about the intergration......its over and done with. We are way past sick of hearing about it over and over again.

 

[flyhigh]

...TWA is the only airline to be able to claim two eccentric billionaires as owners (Hughes & Icahn). The work of both was detrimental to the airline's ability to operate. Interestingly, both were forcibly removed from running the airline. I would agree with the vote for Frye as best CEO. I will also add that I think Bill Compton was a pretty good one, but not great. He was brought in to create a better environment and seek a deal. He wasn't b rought in to run the airline prosperously. By the time he took over TWA was but a shell of what it once was and had no way to really continue.

Not only was Icahn guilty of not investing in the airline, but Hughes create the same issue. When he did buy planes they were typically too late or old technology...

Icahn for his part did make one good attempt in trying to build a mini-hub in ATL after the demise of Eastern...it was the only real effort to expand the network. Unfortunately, the rise of ValuJet killed off that attempt quite quickly.

TWA was once a great airline, but years of mis-management and a lack of building a network, a real city for a hub, and an appropriate fleet would have helped...

 

[Hopeful]

And AA made false promises to the TWA employees about fair and equitable intergration. The IAM surrendered our SCOPE clause without permission from the membership, hence the destruction of the lives of some of the best airline people in the industry. I blame both the IAM and APFA as well as AA.

A Federal arbitrator decided "fair and equitable" seniority.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Courtesty of Wikipedia:

Dick Robbins (1930-34),
Jack Frye (1934-47),
Howard Hughes (1939-65),
Ralph Damon (1948-56),
Carter Burgess (1956-57),
Charles Thomas (1958-60),
Charles Tillinghast (1961-76),
L.E. Smart (1976-),
C.E. Meyer Jr. (1976-85),
Carl Icahn (1985-93),
William R. Howard (1993-94),
Jeffrey H. Erickson (1994-97),
Gerald L. Gitner (1997-99),
William Compton (1999-01)

This thread was supposed to be about the good CEOs, everyone! At the start of this thread, I mentioned Smart as the one who was at helm during degulation, I meant Meyer. I did not realize that he was around until Icahn crept into headquarters.

 

[kirkpatrick]

AA (Carty) stupidly bought the whole defunct airline, instead of letting it continue into Chapter 7 liquidation and buying the routes it wanted. Its the main reason AA is $20 Billion in debt.

Complete bunk. AA didn't buy TWA for routes and hasn't exercised any of the international authorities we retained. AA got TWA for a song, around 750 million, and got a third of that back when Worldspan was sold a couple of years later. Carty made a good decision, based on conditions in pre-9/11 times.

TWA is not responsible for AA's debt. If AA hadn't bought TWA, when 9/11 occurred AA would have been a slightly smaller carrier, would have lost a little bit less money, and would have gotten a smaller check when the government handed out cash for shutting down the system in the days after 9/11. AA would still have had the high cost structure it had before the attack, and the price of fuel still would have skyrocketed. Southwest and JetBlue still would have grown and made competition difficult, and the businessman would have gotten tired of being ripped off by thousand dollar walk-up fares for 750 mile flight segments.

Stop blaming us for your own shortcomings.

MK

A Federal arbitrator decided "fair and equitable" seniority.

Only for one group; mechanics and ramp service.

MK

 

[Hopeful]

Complete bunk. AA didn't buy TWA for routes and hasn't exercised any of the international authorities we retained. AA got TWA for a song, around 750 million, and got a third of that back when Worldspan was sold a couple of years later. Carty made a good decision, based on conditions in pre-9/11 times.

TWA is not responsible for AA's debt. If AA hadn't bought TWA, when 9/11 occurred AA would have been a slightly smaller carrier, would have lost a little bit less money, and would have gotten a smaller check when the government handed out cash for shutting down the system in the days after 9/11. AA would still have had the high cost structure it had before the attack, and the price of fuel still would have skyrocketed. Southwest and JetBlue still would have grown and made competition difficult, and the businessman would have gotten tired of being ripped off by thousand dollar walk-up fares for 750 mile flight segments.

Stop blaming us for your own shortcomings.

MK
Only for one group; mechanics and ramp service.



MK

Prior to 9/11, AMR was just about the most financially secure airline around. Look what happened after 9/11 to present.
Do you really think TWA would have survived 9/11 on its own?


As far as the seniority issue stands, yes a FEDERAL arbitrator ruled on that issue after the IAM and TWU AGREED TO BINDING ARBITRATION.

Now the TWA people are jumping for joy claiming victory because some local MAGISTRATE said their lawsuit has merit.


Let's see what happens when it goes to a FEDERAL court after a FEDRALLY APPOINTED ARBITRATOR decided the seniority issue.

 

[kirkpatrick]

Prior to 9/11, AMR was just about the most financially secure airline around. Look what happened after 9/11 to present.
Do you really think TWA would have survived 9/11 on its own?

What does either of the above statements have to do with my post? I addressed two issues:

1) The contention that the TWA acquisition is primarily responsible for AA's debt.

2) The statement that seniority issues were settled by federal arbitration.

If you want my opinion, no, I don't think TWA would have survived 9/11 on its own. I don't care to get involved in hindsight speculation on just what would have happened if AA had not acquired us. There were several scenarios unfolding at the time, and I'm not sure I'd have wanted to be a part of some of them. There was talk of a sizeable loan from Boeing, Icahn was trying to get back into the picture (God forbid) and serious merger talks were going on with America West.

Now back to the subject. Can you address the two issues I brought up in my previous post?

MK

 

[Hopeful]

What does either of the above statements have to do with my post? I addressed two issues:

1) The contention that the TWA acquisition is primarily responsible for AA's debt.

2) The statement that seniority issues were settled by federal arbitration.

If you want my opinion, no, I don't think TWA would have survived 9/11 on its own. I don't care to get involved in hindsight speculation on just what would have happened if AA had not acquired us. There were several scenarios unfolding at the time, and I'm not sure I'd have wanted to be a part of some of them. There was talk of a sizeable loan from Boeing, Icahn was trying to get back into the picture (God forbid) and serious merger talks were going on with America West.

Now back to the subject. Can you address the two issues I brought up in my previous post?

MK

Personally, I would not say that TWA was the sole reason for AA's predicament. Airlines are in the mess they are because of bad managemnent and bad decisions! But as in any buyout by one company of another, there are enormous problems and challenges.

I think the real reason Carty took TWA was to simply eliminate another carrier with less costs.