U.S. May Ease Rule On Labor Vote

[BABABOOY]

while still learning and viewing the situation from all angles.. one thing is very clear,

DL offers flexibility superior to anything we
have ever had in a contract.

A contract can be very important, however..

there are real limitations when you have a contract, some of that
may be to the groups benefit, but that is not always the case.

what I find interesting, you have right now, things we have never achieved in years of bargaining.

You are correct, the flexibility is there. All achieved without paying dues.
and the black/white issues of a contract has it good points and bad. Delta
does offer some flexibility. Sometimes it benefits them and others it benefits
the f/a's. I see this in the MTO situation. There is flexibility. On the NW
side is Managed Time Out offered? curious. I hope I never need it but I would like
it to be there "if" I do.

 

[Kev3188]

when I completed my training,

I went home to see my family and told people, I just finished training with DL

the first words.. nearly a dozen people said to me..

"please tell me how to get on with them"

I am going to leave it at that..

I've yet to have someone say anything like that. In my current city, many people have expressed dismay that NW is going away. In my hometown, DL has a bad reputation for cutting & running.

if the poor labor relations and Union/Company fighting is inherited it will = fail

Agreed, but that's my point. Look at the corner DL has painted itself in. Campbell refers to AFA/IAM actions as "repugnant," and "appalling." Do you really think he'll bargain in good faith when the time comes?

Delta is highly respected in the community,

at least where my family is from,

See above. I hope you hometown market is bigger than mine.

we have a responsibility to do the best job we can.

I agree. That *should* go without saying. I hope that's a (more or less) universal mindset.

Kev,

It is so very obvious you are highly intelligent and respected.

there is no price tag on that, when they have someone like that
it is wise to retain them. IMO

Thank you. 🙂

The sad reality is that w/o Scope Language, I-and many many talented people-are long gone.

Big whoop! If I had a dime for everytime someone brought up that single case as a reason to substantiate AFA, I would be rich girl!

If I had one for every time I heard about "family" and "culture," I'd be on the beach too.

I bet you wouldnt feel like that if you were the one fired now would you?

There are plenty of stories, not just one.

Amen.

I can tell you that when AMFA went on strike...

The AMFA strike was a lesson on failed solidarity that should never be repeated. It set back the labor movement 10 years, IMO.

As for PFAA, I think they had the best of intentions, but failed when it came to executing them. Maybe that's just me...

and this one day at band camp back in 2002...

LOL.

$43 for a bad contract- I pay $43 dollars for sort of a crappy contract.

(compared to what we had prior to the contract being gutted)

Me too, and yet it's *still* far better to what my DL counterparts have. In fact, if you were to go back and look at many of the items NW was seeking from us, it's almost a mirror image of what DL currently has.

 

[Dignity]

I've yet to have someone say anything like that. In my current city, many people have expressed dismay that NW is going away. In my hometown, DL has a bad reputation for cutting & running.

I was referring to where my family is from, such as, my parents..

where I was raised DL has made a huge positive impression
on the community.

(and people want to work for them)

and they need to keep that positive impression close including going forward.

Agreed, but that's my point. Look at the corner DL has painted itself in. Campbell refers to AFA/IAM actions as "repugnant," and "appalling." Do you really think he'll bargain in good faith when the time comes?

I know no one will be doing any bargaining if we do not have an election!

also, I am not supporting what the Union is doing this past year, especially when they pulled the request.

how does that show.. they, Union have any intentions bargaining in good faith as well?

it can appear they pull a lot of stunts and back out when its not going their way.

(a serious perception problem)

See above. I hope you hometown market is bigger than mine.

being based at one of the hubs, probably is bigger!

I agree. That *should* go without saying. I hope that's a (more or less) universal mindset.

I believe it is, however..
well when you hear

"40 percent paycuts, 40 percent less work" or "they dont pay me enough to recycle"

it sort of makes me cringe,
but thankfully that is very rare.

Thank you. 🙂

Kev,
I really do not want to even remotely come across as arguing with you.. because I really
respect you very much, not necessarily only being a colleague, but simply because
I know you try to view a situation with a critical eye.. to make other people understand
and see it from a different perspective.

I get that part.

I am trying to view the situation from different angles, however there are issues I just
personally cannot support, but still try and see the big picture.

The sad reality is that w/o Scope Language, I-and many many talented people-are long gone.

I know it is a possibility this time we may not have a contract going forward, however..
if they take advantage of the situation and start screwing over the employees and community

the name and reputation is ruined.. it will fall all on them this time.

I do not think that will happen, because it would have been 100 percent avoidable if it did.

there is a lot more at stake here than a few at the top making a lot of money..

having a lot of money to buy things, have things, and being able to do things minus respect = you have nothing.

(I really hope some people understand that)

The AMFA strike was a lesson on failed solidarity that should never be repeated. It set back the labor movement 10 years, IMO.

Their Leadership failed them, that needs to be included as well.

it seems to be the norm to continuously point fingers to everyone else yet hold any responsibility for themselves.

we are not the scapegoat.

I am not going to continue to be held responsible being a former NW employee for their failed strike while the courts
had our hands tied with a court order and our union did not release us to do anything in support or even
release the results of the sympathy strike vote.

Do you happen to know what those results are?

because today I do not.

there is a clear process that needs to be followed and that is the bottom line.

that process was not followed and therefore it is what it is.

What that clearly showed me is simply they had zero consideration for Flight Attendant.

that is how I see it today.

As for PFAA, I think they had the best of intentions, but failed when it came to executing them. Maybe that's just me...

its just you.

while I do agree initially they tried to work with the situation the best they could

(or at least that is how it looked to me at that time)

it was clear they were way over their heads.

however, ignoring issues for two full years, losing dues check off, even though they said it wouldnt be a problem and then gutting the contract and some of the reps hitting the road to take Management positions at other airlines of all things to do
isnt really doing the right thing..

but what really showed true colors was when...

we witnessed exactly what PFAA did when they secured AFA Leadership positions, our best interest was not even
the intent, at least that is how it appeared.

LOL

that training I wrote was in regards to IQ and AQ.

there was nothing funny about either one of those programs and remotely considered a joke.

while I completely understand that was not the intent of the manipulated quote or the "LOL" comment
I just wanted to clear up that DL takes their training very seriously. They expected us to know a lot of
the information prior to stepping foot in their training facility. They have high expectations of us
and fortunately, it appears we made a good impression on them, at least the instructors thanked us
all for participating in class and doing well on our exams and testing.

I will say they have some of the most effective instructors in regards to how they deliver information.

The facility is highly impressive, I really appreciated how they focused so much on safety while
still considering the human factor and helping us all achieve to be our best

by being as supportive as they could.

Its was really a very positive experience.. it is different.

(in a very good way)

 

[Dignity]

You are correct, the flexibility is there. All achieved without paying dues.
and the black/white issues of a contract has it good points and bad. Delta
does offer some flexibility. Sometimes it benefits them and others it benefits
the f/a's. I see this in the MTO situation. There is flexibility. On the NW
side is Managed Time Out offered? curious. I hope I never need it but I would like
it to be there "if" I do.

all I can say is we need to come together (either way) and work together here.

we cannot realize any positive aspects of this merger by filing lawsuits, ignoring
issues and pulling requests.

flexibility is very important to a Flight Attendant, and I feel when all is said and done
the right thing will happen not only addressing but maintaining as well.

its been time to move forward.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Silly statements huh? Your too funny 🙂
You know darn well that the AFA would love to "USE" her. However, she won't allow it.
And Yes I am talking only about Yasuko. And yes, she is a friend. And NO she wasn't advised
then, nor now NOT to take a public stance.
Ask yourself, why don't we see Yasko's story and
face plastered all over reminding us what happened all those years ago? I know why, and I am
sure those out there can figure it out. If not,
how about give her a call, she will explain.
I can not, nor did I speak for the others involved. In fact she and a few others
is what made me believe that we need some protection. But not the AFA....
I mean come on.....I would think even by now you would be able to see that Delta
is the lesser of two evils.

The bottom line is how does Yasuko feel, 10 years later, about having a contract. All that matters is her vote. Any of our votes. If it were not for ALPA, Yasuko would not be flying for Delta. You and I have discussed this. The only difference is that you have fallen for management's propoganda regarding AFA, have ignored the fact that WE make up Delta AFA. They are not a perfect organization by a long shot but then those don't exist.
The people I have the least respect for in this argument (because I don't respect whining mixed with laziness--and I'm not saying you are whining but there are plenty out there) are those that know we need some protection, don't want AFA---YET---here's the big one: HAVE DONE NOT ONE THING TO INVESTIGATE OTHER ALTERNATIVES. I have asked an acquaintance of mine who feels the same way about AFA if he had contacted TWU or Teamsters or anyone. He said, "no", that he doesn't have time and why should he do all that work. So there ya go.
BB--let me know when you've found an alternative to AFA. It's been 2 years since I've been "chatting" with you on these boards and you have reported NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH.
Yet all the while you profess empathy for the situation that your friend, Yasuko, found herself in.
Yet, your answer is to do nothing---keep the status quo. If I were her, I would find your stance a slap in the face at the most and at the least, you an unreliable "friend."
I hope one day you don't find yourself in such a situation. I'm sure you are familiar with what a horrible time she went thru---and several others (my friend included.)

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Dignity--very quick 'cause I have a busy day.
Delta must negotiate "in good faith". So as far as starting from scratch, they are trying to scare f/a's into thinking the worst so they don't vote (or vote NO). Much of what we have (including Adays) saves the company millions. The great thing is these things that save the company millions are often times popular with the flt attendants. So, all we're asking is---let's get it in writing so we can have some consistency with our earning power and daily lives.
The group that would not want A days at NW are obviously going to be those who are off reserve now, but would get 3 days with the new program (in most bases, excluding NYC, those are people with anywhere from 15-23 years). Percentage-wise, they would not be a majority. The combined groups of junior f/a's (who want them) and more senior f/a's (who don't get them) are a greater percentage of the group. And once again---it is a HUGE money-saver for Delta.

 

[Dignity]

So as far as starting from scratch, they are trying to scare f/a's into thinking the worst so they don't vote (or vote NO).

Luke that is not a scare tactic it is the truth.

Our NW contract is not going to carry over and be the DL contract and then improve on it
(if the group opts for representation)

They will absolutely go through every section and line attempting to negotiate a contract,

while passing proposals back and forth..

on each section.

it is a lengthy time consuming process.

remember they have to put something together the "majority"
will approve.

they have to start from scratch to do that putting it all together.

Much of what we have (including Adays) saves the company millions. The great thing is these things that save the company millions are often times popular with the flt attendants. So, all we're asking is---let's get it in writing so we can have some consistency with our earning power and daily lives.

I think it is a great program because
they have actually addressed reserve but my point is..

there is some fine tuning needed. IMO

The group that would not want A days at NW are obviously going to be those who are off reserve now, but would get 3 days with the new program (in most bases, excluding NYC, those are people with anywhere from 15-23 years). Percentage-wise, they would not be a majority.

it doesnt matter if they are considered the majority or not, everyone's schedule should be taking into consideration
based on what they held previously and what they are able to hold in the future. I fly day trips or turns, so for me
either I know I have a day trip or a reserve day so it doesnt really play so much of a factor.. what I do during that "day"

there is a significant number in the group flying that type of schedule, (1 days...turns..midnights)
and have exactly my same concern.

I guess.. I question what is the issue taking three days of A days

and having the ability to break them up
based on a personal preference during bidding.

(not necessarily forced on the group.. but being able to elect as an option unique to the bidder 1 day of A day here or there..)

The combined groups of junior f/a's (who want them) and more senior f/a's (who don't get them) are a greater percentage of the group. And once again---it is a HUGE money-saver for Delta.

as long as the ability to break them up into one day or even two days blocks is a consideration.

saving money and then negatively affecting someone's personal life isnt always going to be appreciated.

again, fine tuning is probably something to be looked at.

(there always should be an opportunity to try and improve)

issues can be addressed with or without representation based on feedback.

 

[700UW]

Better to go through the process and have a CBA then to be an employee at will and have the company do whatever they want.

Why do the Executives have contracts?

Go ask the DL employees about leadership 7.5 program and how much say so they had in their chapter 11 case.

Unions arent perfect but its better to have a union and a CBA than have nothing.

Why is this industry so heavily unionized? Another thought to ponder...

 

[Dignity]

Better to go through the process and have a CBA then to be an employee at will and have the company do whatever they want.

basically what you are implying, unless you have a CBA your voice is never heard.

I know that is not the case because changes occur based on feedback all the time
minus a contract.

why do I feel that way?

they never unionized.

Unions arent perfect but its better to have a union and a CBA than have nothing.

if the majority opts that direction, then that is what it will be.

(we will never fully understand how the group feels by having our election continously delayed)

Why is this industry so heavily unionized? Another thought to ponder...

are you confident with your personal performance..if a union was not there for whatever reason?

(because that is how the majority in this country actually work)

 

[700UW]

Please show me in detail what input DL's employees had in leadership 7.5 by Ron Allen who gutted their workrules, pay and benefits.

Please give me how many times DL labor relations met with the non-unionized employees under section 1113 negotiations in their bankruptcy to negotiate a deal instead of imposing their terms and outsourcing tons of work and laying people off.

And I dont care about other industries, I am asking you about airlines, and I see once again you fail to answer questions, typical.

 

[Dignity]

I see once again you fail to answer questions, typical.

you ask questions that cannot be answered necessarily on this forum and then turn around and state they are failing to be answered.

is it possible I am not the person to answer them?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Dignity--

I have been a DL employee for many, many years and I will tell you this:
DL is very slow to make any kind of changes. They are better now than they used to be but not by much. Ask any DL f/a if they feel that what they write up in F.A.C.T.S is addressed in a timely fashion or even at all.
Also, you will NEVER, EVER see the 3 A-days broken up into three separate days or any other version. And I totally understand the company on this. They need you to be available on the first day for a 3 day trip. It would negatively impact the operation. If you think that's coming, forget it. It's been tried...it ain't happening.
Also, I KNOW the NW contract isn't going to necessarily be part of the negotiating process! The point is the company HAS to negotiate in good faith. That means, for example, they cannot put an offer out, say for hourly rate, at 15.00/flt hour for those at the top of the pay scale.
Furthermore, 700 is obviously putting those questions out there because he is trying to get you to understand what can happen without contractual protections in place (and I'm not talking while in BK). You are trying to come from a position where you think you understand the entirety of Delta when you haven't worked there yet. It appears you have stopped keeping an open mind. But that's fine......all I can say is if you think you're gonna get your A days separated, that shows your naivete about how things are run at Delta. Just because the ATL groupies are afraid of change, brown-nose the powers-that-be (special favors), would rather spend $43/mo on Starbucks instead of their future----none of that means that Delta is running a Club Med. It is a business.

 

[BABABOOY]

If it were not for ALPA, Yasuko would not be flying for Delta. You and I have discussed this. The only difference is that you have fallen for management's propoganda regarding AFA, have ignored the fact that WE make up Delta AFA. They are not a perfect organization by a long shot but then those don't exist.

Exactly, ALPA got her job back. I wonder if AFA could do the same. And your right, they are not a
perfect organization, far from it. The difference between you and I, is that I see them as FAR worse
than Delta. And as far as falling for Management's propaganda? Perhaps it is you that has fallen
for the doom and gloom scenario of the AFA and that everything will be utopia with a contract. As we
know, it just takes a stroke of a pen to void a contract.

BB--let me know when you've found an alternative to AFA. It's been 2 years since I've been "chatting" with you on these boards and you have reported NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH.

To be honest, I didn't know you had asked me to report to you. On that note, speaking with my fellow
co-workers over the past two failed attempts with the AFA, I believe many, including myself
feel that an independent union would be the answer. Once the AFA is kicked out once and
for all, we would have the experience of the PMNW folks to get the ball rolling.
The feeling that once the AFA will get in, then it would be very tough to get them
out. And that would be a far worse scenario than dealing with Delta. Hopefully the NMB would be honest and change the de-certification rules to match the "newly proposed"
voting rules.
I doubt it, There is no one honest left in D.C. Probably never was..

Yet all the while you profess empathy for the situation that your friend, Yasuko, found herself in.
Yet, your answer is to do nothing---keep the status quo. If I were her, I would find your stance a slap in the face at the most and at the least, you an unreliable "friend."
I hope one day you don't find yourself in such a situation. I'm sure you are familiar with what a horrible time she went thru---and several others (my friend included.)

Well she recognizes her friends do have different opinions and again, realizes that the
AFA is that much hated. Again, you have to ask yourself, why is she so quiet about
the AFA ? Fly with her, she is very sweet and she can tell you personally. Why haven't we
heard from the others that were involved? I know why we haven't heard from Yasuko, but
what about the others? One would think that they would be very active in getting representation.
There faces/names out there? But there not.....

 

[Dignity]

Dignity--

Luke...

Also, you will NEVER, EVER see the 3 A-days broken up into three separate days or any other version. And I totally understand the company on this.

never say never!

They need you to be available on the first day for a 3 day trip. It would negatively impact the operation. If you think that's coming, forget it. It's been tried...it ain't happening.

a lot of that would depend on how they actually build what we call patterns. if there is a significant percentage of
day trips or turns, that would also involve the need to have one day reserve patterns and one day reserve on call days.

of course if a significant portion of the bidding packet is primarily three day trips, I can absolutely see your point and
why it is necessarily to have three on call days in a row.

I guess the question would be, what is the percentage of one day trips available at the base regarding pattern
construction.

Also, I KNOW the NW contract isn't going to necessarily be part of the negotiating process!

it may not be at all!

The point is the company HAS to negotiate in good faith. That means, for example, they cannot put an offer out, say for hourly rate, at 15.00/flt hour for those at the top of the pay scale.

for the sake of labor peace in a representational scenario, I would think it would be the best option.

(negotiate in good faith) I do not think it would be an issue, more than likely they will work with the group regardless.

why would they not? it would not make good business sense to go to war with the employees after a successful integration. IMO

Furthermore, 700 is obviously putting those questions out there because he is trying to get you to understand what can happen without contractual protections in place (and I'm not talking while in BK).

I understand completely what that individual is doing.

You are trying to come from a position where you think you understand the entirety of Delta when you haven't worked there yet. It appears you have stopped keeping an open mind.

thats just not true, but you are entitled to your opinion!

But that's fine......all I can say is if you think you're gonna get your A days separated, that shows your naivete about how things are run at Delta.

sometimes other people may have an idea how to make something work another way, at least having the option to
listen to new ideas might be a good thing?

remember there is a whole new group joining the fold with the same goal improving it all for everyone involved!

Just because the ATL groupies are afraid of change, brown-nose the powers-that-be (special favors), would rather spend $43/mo on Starbucks instead of their future----none of that means that Delta is running a Club Med. It is a business.

you are just as sweet as the sugar they may use in that coffee!

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Exactly, ALPA got her job back. I wonder if AFA could do the same. And your right, they are not a
perfect organization, far from it. The difference between you and I, is that I see them as FAR worse
than Delta. And as far as falling for Management's propaganda? Perhaps it is you that has fallen
for the doom and gloom scenario of the AFA and that everything will be utopia with a contract. As we
know, it just takes a stroke of a pen to void a contract.

You don't know what would happen with AFA but I assure you, it would have been better than when these people were left to hang out to dry on their own. The attorneys for AFA are well aware of drug-testing policy and procedure, lab reliability, etc.. just like ALPA.
And I have NEVER said that AFA was going to bring utopia. That is what you anti-AFA folks say and then twist it to intimate that is what people like myself believe.
And it takes more than a "stroke of a pen" to void a contract. You are talking under dire conditions such as BK. How did you feel about Leo Mullin and co. receiving BK-proof pensions in the millions?

On that note, speaking with my fellow
co-workers over the past two failed attempts with the AFA, I believe many, including myself
feel that an independent union would be the answer. Once the AFA is kicked out once and
for all, we would have the experience of the PMNW folks to get the ball rolling.
The feeling that once the AFA will get in, then it would be very tough to get them
out.

It is incredibly expensive and time-consuming to start an Independent Union, BB. Ask some of the NW people how they felt about PFAA. They had little power or money. That is why they were essentially 'kicked to the curb'. However, there is a caveat: With 21k instead of 7k f/a's there might be the chance for a stronger, more independent organization. My NW friend says he believes that it's better to go with AFA now and if their organizational structure/ways of doing business with DL is not to our liking, THEN, he says it will be easier to form our own Independent.

And that would be a far worse scenario than dealing with Delta. Hopefully the NMB would be honest and change the de-certification rules to match the "newly proposed"
voting rules.
I doubt it, There is no one honest left in D.C. Probably never was..

I actually agree with you here. If 35% sign cards to decertify the union back to non union status, it should be put up for a vote the same way--YES/NO

Well she recognizes her friends do have different opinions and again, realizes that the
AFA is that much hated. Again, you have to ask yourself, why is she so quiet about
the AFA ? Fly with her, she is very sweet and she can tell you personally. Why haven't we
heard from the others that were involved? I know why we haven't heard from Yasuko, but
what about the others? One would think that they would be very active in getting representation.
There faces/names out there? But there not.....

Think about it for a minute. These people were without their job, their livelihood for one year over this fiasco. Not everyone recv'd a settlelment like I believe Yasuko did. Would you, if in their shoes, rock the boat? It's called intimidation. My friend was drug-tested repeatedly after she got her job back, sometimes 3 times in a month. I have, however, in the past seen her with an afa pin...don't know about recently.