Uncle Bob is back....

[AAObserver]

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On 4/21/2003 904 PM AAStew wrote:


AAOB,
For one of our "Best Customers" you certainly have alot of free time on your hands. I don''t have as much time as you seem to and I am on leave! My spouse is in the business world and pretty succesful and does not seem to have even 1/100th of the time you do to whine on the boards. Wow that shows how important you  must be....

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You certainly are entitled to your own opinion, but I didn''t give myself "OBC" status -- your airline did. They did it because I am one of the few people out there who actually spends significant money on airline tickets.

As for the time I have, sometimes I have alot of it, sometimes I don''t. Whether I do or not has nothing to do with the fact that if every AA customer gave your company as much business as I do, you wouldn''t be having to vote on concessions right now. You can take that for what it''s worth and make your own determination on whether I''m successful or not.

 

[AAONO]

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On 4/21/2003 8:28:40 PM AAObserver wrote:

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On 4/21/2003 8:13:20 PM RV4 wrote:


P>The union members have nothing but the emotion FEAR to vote on. What do you want me to say? That using fear to extract concessions from employees without a business plan is good company policy? Sorry but I dont think that is sound business at all.

Given that the problem is low revenue, which is a direct result of over supply, I think selling off some assests and downsizing is in the best interest of the creditors, the airline, and the employees. Now would like to tell everyone how I "really think"?


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I'm just asking you to think with a business mind. Fear has nothing to do it.

Yes, low revenue is part of the problem. But the real problem is an unsustainable cost structure. AA's labor costs are way too high to support the industry-wide drop in revenue. Selling assets will help bring cash in temporarily, but the only way to solve the problem for the long run is to reduce the on-going cost structure which is mainly labor.

Carty is trying to reduce the cost structure through concessions. He isn't asking for concessions because it's fun, he's doing it to save the airline. In case you noticed, he took the retention bonuses (which the board had setup to be paid in 2004) and moved them back to 2005 before he cancelled them altogether. He did this for cost savings, and he didn't have to.

If AA goes into bankruptcy, the BK court will reduce labor costs first and foremost. (Interestingly enough, WorldCom had better cash flow and revenue than AA does prior to it's ch. 11 filing, but through bankruptcy they went from 90,000 employees to 55,000).

The only business plan that will succeed is reduction of costs, including labor costs. I have no idea why you and some of the others here feel they will get a better deal if AA goes chapter 11. If you "win" by voting to rescind the concession contract, then what do you really "win"?

If I am correct, the last numbers put out by management on labor costs was that it was 40% of our budget. Now I would look at that, but I would focus attention on the other 60%. You have aircraft...Too many? park some. Which ones? the ones with the highest operating cost. F100 is the highest. (We have hope, they will be gone in the next year or two). Next we should divest all of AMR's non critcal assets...(bet you know a few) Next, fewer airplanes, don't need as many people, time to shine, get rid of alot of the extra fat in middle management first, start the retrenchment, show a good example to the unions that we have a true "shared sacrifice". Now go ahead and reduce your critical staffing, you know, the people that actually work (unions). Now you've chipped away at some of the 40% and the 60% at the same time.......Keep going now, you can do it......

See you in the unemployment line!
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[TWAnr]

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On 4/21/2003 750 PM AAObserver wrote:

Actually, I''m not part of AA management. I''m one of what AA dubbed "OBC" or "Our Best Customers" a couple of years ago.

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AAObserver,

Why the past tense? Are you one of the stellar executives who used to work for Enron, WorldCom or some other now disreputable company and who are currently defending themselves against federal indictments? You clearly have way too much time on your hand to have posted forty eight messages in the span of less than four days.

 

[AAproud]

I agree with you AAObserver on this point...I think the anger the unions feel should be directed to their union leaders for failing to ask questions and do the homework required during the discussions with AA management...Mr. Carty has issued an apology for this current situation and I think he has worked very very hard to save AA from bankruptcy. In fact has any union member given up 88% of their salary to show their commitment to the company. From the newspaper reports the answer to that is NO! However, MR. CARTY HAS! and furthermore if you want to verify that fact just read the newspaper articles...It''s the unions who are causing much of the trouble at AA and for their own self gain -- they should be more educated...but then again if they were educated personnel then they might be in the executive office of AA....As it stands you ask yourself why do they fight so hard for what they have and it''s because they know that in the open job market they would not find a position that has the same perks and pay that AA does...and without union representation they would be nothing...The only power the unions have is to bully the company... Ignorance is written all over their union faces because they will bite the very hand that feeds them....the unions are not team players with the rest of the AA employees... They in fact are looking for a scape goat for the failings of their own leaders in this matter and that scape goat is Mr. Carty. They treated Mr. Crandall with disrepect many times over and they are doing the same thing with Mr. Carty. The unions are nothing more than a snake in the grass. Mr. Carty does not deserve the mess the unions are dishing out. ************************************************************ On 4/21/2003 5:33:09 PM AAObserver wrote: Spare me the BS. When the unions didn''t like what Crandall did, they whined and striked. Then they complained about how unfair he was.

Posted: 4/21/2003 1138 PM

 

[AAproud]

**WingNaPrayer I read your version of corporate America as you put it and I had to laugh...talk about ignorance...you are so misguided in your examples maybe you should ask yourself if you can actually qualify for a job flipping hamburgers because if so that is where you should start looking for a new job...You mentioned "borderline criminal"...get real...there is no such thing either it''s criminal or it''s not...and IT''S NOT...those papers were filed legally. I think the anger the unions feel should be directed to their union leaders for failing to ask questions and do the homework required during the discussions with AA management...Mr. Carty has issued an apology for this current situation and I think he has worked very very hard to save AA from bankruptcy. In fact has any union member given up 88% of their salary to show their commitment to the company. From the newspaper reports the answer to that is NO! However, MR. CARTY HAS! and furthermore if you want to verify that fact just read the newspaper articles...It''s the unions who are causing much of the trouble at AA and for their own self gain -- they should be more educated...but then again if they were educated personnel then they might be in the executive office of AA....As it stands you ask yourself why do they fight so hard for what they have and it''s because they know that in the open job market they would not find a position that has the same perks and pay that AA does...and without union representation they would be nothing...The only power the unions have is to bully the company... Ignorance is written all over their union faces because they will bite the very hand that feeds them....the unions are not team players with the rest of the AA employees... They in fact are looking for a scape goat for the failings of their own leaders in this matter and that scape goat is Mr. Carty. They treated Mr. Crandall with disrespect many times over and they are doing the same thing with Mr. Carty. The unions are nothing more than a snake in the grass. Mr. Carty does not deserve the mess the unions are dishing out. Oh and you mentioned leagues in your response well just for the record you might want to rethink that remark as your not even in the right ballpark... ************************************************************ Ok now I understand, I just misinterpreted that you had a CLUE what corporate America is all about, but obviously you don''t. You seem to think that this is just an airline and that the executive can do as he/she pleases and if employess don''t like it, they can take a hike. Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but . . .in corporate america the executive level is responsible to, and must answer to the stockholders. Secondly, some of what has been done at AA is borderline criminal, and in my mind, some of the things warrant indictments. However, your answer appears to be that it''s ok for the executive level to pull it''s shenannigans and get away with it, and employees can just go elsewhere if they don''t like it. Do you realize just how childish that sounds? The executive level at AMR attempted to reduce wages, benefits and work rules because they claimed the company needed the money. On the other hand, they were quickly drawing up paperwork that basically puts that money employees were to give up . . . into their own pockets in the form of retention bonuses and slush fund retirement plans . . . and YOU think that''s ok? YOU are the one that needs to find a new profession. Might I suggest flipping burgers somehwere? Surely your mentality will fit right in. Would you like fries with that? You''re out of your league! Posted: 4/22/2003 12:02:10 AM

Posted: 4/22/2003 1256 AM

 

[WingNaPrayer]

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On 4/22/2003 12:13:14 AM AAproud wrote:

those papers were filed legally
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I assume you think that makes the action legal, just because they wrote up some papers? It doesn't. Conversion is still conversion and yes, it's punishable by law. They took a company they claimed was near bankruptcy, set aside it's revenues for their own personal use, then hit up labor for concessions to replace it and threatened labor with bankruptcy if they didn't comply.

Are you really advocating that? Now who's laughable?

***** ***** ***** ***** *****

 

[AAStew]

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On 4/21/2003 11:25:02 PM AAproud wrote:

-- they should be more educated...but then again if they were educated personnel then they might be in the executive office of AA....

AAProud.
What an arrogant statement...I can only speak of my workgroup the APFA, but I can guarantee we are an educated group. We choose this job because we enjoy the freedom it offers us, not necessarily the money as most of us could make quite a bit more in the normal workforce. What we want from the "Execs' is respect and honesty, something which has never been offered.
Not only is your statement arrogant but it shows a great deal of ignorance, which is why you are probably a paper pusher who will probably lose his job with the next round of cuts. Buh-bye
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[AAproud]

WingNaPrayer...Yes your response is still laughable put your money where your mouth is....and yes those papers were filed legally, do you know what the security and exchange commission is? From your response I get the impression you don''t. You really did not have much to say regarding the other points made in my comment -- so what about your union leaders do they know and understand that this mess your angry about is really their responsibility....Your union leaders failed and they are the ones you should replace not Mr. Carty. As I stated before Mr. Carty has put his own paycheck where his mouth is and he is an upstanding leader for American Airlines....He did not have to do the following as was reported in the newspaper but he did....Here is the quote from yesterday''s newspaper "American tried to quell the anger of labor groups last Friday by saying it had voluntary canceled retention plans put in place more than a year ago to keep its key executives." So where does it say that American did not give perks to the unions in the concessions packages....It doesn''t...In fact they did and they were given just recently...April 16th. This is a direct quote from the newspaper "The pot was sweetened for labor groups by the airline, which offered them a profit-sharing plan and a stock-option deal that could have them owning up to 20 percent of the company." So the unions get to keep their perks the executives lose theirs...and you call this fair...no other employee at American was offered a perk to sign any concession deal. Each and every employee at AA has had to make concessions in pay and benefits...But only union employees get the perks in their concession packages...Bankruptcy is real and it will happen unless you all wise up...Mr. Carty did not use bankruptcy to get the unions to sign...Hello...No it''s real and it will happen unless you all become team players with the rest of the company...Who will the unions blame when they are out of a job and your standing in the unemployment line with your former co-workers waiting to apply for the same job where you once were co-workers now your competitors...Your union leaders are the ones to blame...Perhaps there are enough fast food places around town that will hire all you out of work union members... Don''t bother to respond unless you can back up your opinion with facts because I don''t respect any of the unions crybaby tactics....grow up!

Posted: 4/22/2003 6:28:22 AM

 

[AAproud]

AAStew
Well you are so very wrong in your assessment of who I am...No I am not a paper pusher and you won''t be saying good bye to me in the next round of layoffs...But you will say good bye to many union members....Unless the unions get over it and get on board with the other employees at American, bankruptcy is real...As far as your level of education goes are you stating that the executives at American Airlines did not choose their respective positions as you said you chose yours. If what you work for is the freedom your job allows you then you should have no problem with the concessions the company is asking for...my statement regarding educational levels may be arrogant in your point of view...so what? Furthermore, just how do you suppose I am ignorant...You failed to back that statement up...I am not ignorant by any means...Oh and one more thing if all you really want is respect and honesty from the executives at American Airlines why not try passing some respect and honesty around from your end to the rest of the company employees who stand to lose because you dont feel your getting enough.
Bankruptcy is real and it will happen what part of that statement is not honest or respectful. Perhaps if you get laid off your next employer will pay you for the respect and honesty you said you did not get at American...As you stated you could make more somewhere else...so go somewhere else and do just that...

 

[WingNaPrayer]

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On 4/22/2003 719 AM AAproud wrote:

Unless the unions get over it and get on board with the other employees at American
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Which employees are you talking about? If you are referring to the non-union groups, they had no say in this mess whatsoever, and have long taken the hardest hits from AMR.

With reference to your SEC statement. Do you think just because something is divulged in an SEC document that it''s legal? You really ARE a corporate schill! The SEC isn''t a policing agency, it does not tell corporations what they can and can''t do with their money, only that they have to report it. It still does not make it legal. The rest of your "points" were not addressed because they were clearly nothing but corporate hyperbole!

Conversion, nay, documented embezzlement! The trust is gone, AMR must clean house on the executive level, and do it quick or just liquidate and get it over with because once DIP financers find that the employess have NOT been whipped into shape like Carty claimed, they are going to take a good hard second look at their funding agreements.

***** ***** ***** ***** *****
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[AAStew]

AAProud wrote:.

...Unless the . If what you work for is the freedom your job allows you then you should have no problem with the concessions the company is asking for...my statement regarding educational levels may be arrogant in your point of view...so what? Furthermore, just how do you suppose I am ignorant...You failed to back that statement up...I am not ignorant by any means...Oh and one more thing if all you really want is respect and honesty from the executives at American Airlines why not try passing some respect and honesty around from your end to the rest of the company employees who stand to lose because you dont feel your getting enough.
Bankruptcy is real and it will happen what part of that statement is not honest or respectful. Perhaps if you get laid off your next employer will pay you for the respect and honesty you said you did not get at American...As you stated you could make more somewhere else...so go somewhere else and do just that...


I wondered whether to reply to you, since you are basically just letting off steam, but let me just say, we were more than willing to give up much, as evidenced by the T/A we agreed to. The problem is the execs dropped the ball. If they would of been honest as they claimed to be, there would not be as much anger. If the unions revote this you are right, many will lose their jobs. I do not wish that on anyone. But the problem here lies with the lack of integrity with our management.
And by the way you are blabbering it seems you may be losing your job also. It is your level of mentality that truly brings this company down. I am willing to take my fair share. Is Carty? His salary is only 7% below his base in 2001. MIne overall with all the concessions will be over 24%. The only reason he has given back anything is because of our uproar.
I will not reply to you any longer as it is not worth the effort, but please do think before you post, you are letting YOUR emotions rule your thinking. Buh-bye...​

 

[AAproud]

AAStew
talk about manipulation....what I wrote and how you read it are so far apart...You might re-read it -- No I am not going to be in the next round of layoffs and my steam is directed to the unions at American I dont want to see AA file bankruptcy. I used your statements which you published in this forum in my response and all you can say is I am letting off steam because you think I will lose my job at AA...Well your wrong once again. Does it matter to me if you respond back No...I would rather have a discussion with someone who can back up their thoughts and opinions with facts than just someone who wants to argue. I have backed my opinions up and I do believe the unions anger should be directed toward the union leaders as they failed in this matter. Your lack of trust should be directed at them as well. They were your voice and they were your guide throughout this process and they had access in those meetings to ask questions. They are the ones who let you down...The offer in question has been withdrawn by Mr. Carty. Is there any lack of trust on his part with the unions that you all wont play some sort of sick out or other game to make things worse than they already are...Trust goes both ways. The unions have in the past done those things in order to get what they want, so no one is completely innocent. However it should not be in the unions power or desire to get even with Mr. Carty as it were to cause the company to file for bankruptcy...

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 4/22/2003 7:31:20 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:

With reference to your SEC statement.  Do you think just because something is divulged in an SEC document that it''s legal?  You really ARE a corporate schill!  The SEC isn''t a policing agency, it does not tell corporations what they can and can''t do with their money, only that they have to report it.  It still does not make it legal.  The rest of your "points" were not addressed because they were clearly nothing but corporate hyperbole!

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No, but Ernst and Young reviewed it and found that it met FASB requirements and SEC guidelines for a publicly traded corporation.

Since the Arthur Anderson fiasco, E&Y isn''t about to f*** themself by signing off on the books.

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On 4/22/2003 7:31:20 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:

Conversion, nay, documented embezzlement!  The trust is gone

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No, the trust remains. It just won''t be funded beyond the initial payment as planned.

 

[AAproud]

On 4/22/2003 7:31:20 AM WingNaPrayer wrote:
Which employees are you talking about?  If you are referring to the non-union groups, they had no say in this mess whatsoever, and have long taken the hardest hits from AMR.
With reference to your SEC statement.  Do you think just because something is divulged in an SEC document that it''s legal?  You really ARE a corporate schill!  The SEC isn''t a policing agency, it does not tell corporations what they can and can''t do with their money, only that they have to report it.  It still does not make it legal.  The rest of your "points" were not addressed because they were clearly nothing but corporate hyperbole!
Conversion, nay, documented embezzlement!  The trust is gone, AMR must clean house on the executive level, and do it quick or just liquidate and get it over with because once DIP financers find that the employess have NOT been whipped into shape like Carty claimed, they are going to take a good hard second look at their funding agreements.
************************************************************
WingNaPrayer
Point 1 your assessment of the other employees at American having been hit the hardest at American is a point I do agree with...
Point 2 the word is actually shill not schill look it up if you so desire...and no I am not a corporate shill in the way you put it. I am however a supporter of American Airlines staying out of bankruptcy. For the record you are misinformed about the SEC. I am including as an FYI the SEC statement as to what they are....
"Monitoring the securities industry requires a highly coordinated effort. Congress established the Securities and Exchange Commission in 1934 to enforce the newly-passed securities laws, to promote stability in the markets and, most importantly, to protect investors. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt appointed Joseph P. Kennedy, President John F. Kennedy''s father, to serve as the first Chairman of the SEC.

Organization of the SEC

The SEC is comprised of five presidentially-appointed Commissioners, four Divisions and 18 Offices. With approximately 3,100 staff, the SEC is small by federal agency standards. Headquartered in Washington, DC, the SEC has 11 regional and district Offices throughout the country.

The Commissioners

The Securities and Exchange Commission has five Commissioners who are appointed by the President of the United States with the advice and consent of the Senate. Their terms last five years and are staggered so that one Commissioner''s term ends on June 5 of each year. To ensure that the Commission remains non-partisan, no more than three Commissioners may belong to the same political party. The President also designates one of the Commissioners as Chairman, the SEC''s top executive.

The Commissioners meet to discuss and resolve a variety of issues the staff brings to their attention. At these meetings the Commissioners:

* interpret federal securities laws;

* amend existing rules;

* propose new rules to address changing market conditions; and/or

* enforce rules and laws.

These meetings are open to the public and the news media unless the discussion pertains to confidential subjects, such as whether to begin an enforcement investigation.

Divisions
Division of Corporation Finance

The Division of Corporation Finance oversees corporate disclosure of important information to the investing public. Corporations are required to comply with regulations pertaining to disclosure that must be made when stock is initially sold and then on a continuing and periodic basis. The Division''s staff routinely reviews the disclosure documents filed by companies. The staff also provides companies with assistance interpreting the Commission''s rules and recommends to the Commission new rules for adoption.
SEC staff in meeting - 1


SEC staff in meeting - 2

The Division of Corporation Finance reviews documents that publicly-held companies are required to file with the Commission. The documents include:

* registration statements for newly-offered securities;

* annual and quarterly filings (Forms 10-K and 10-Q);

* proxy materials sent to shareholders before an annual meeting;

* annual reports to shareholders;

* documents concerning tender offers (a tender offer is an offer to buy a large number of shares of a corporation, usually at a premium above the current market price); and

* filings related to mergers and acquisitions.

These documents disclose information about the companies'' financial condition and business practices to help investors make informed investment decisions. Through the Division''s review process, the staff checks to see if publicly-held companies are meeting their disclosure requirements and seeks to improve the quality of the disclosure. To meet the SEC''s requirements for disclosure, a company issuing securities or whose securities are publicly traded must make available all information, whether it is positive or negative, that might be relevant to an investor''s decision to buy, sell, or hold the security.

Corporation Finance provides administrative interpretations of the Securities Act of 1933, the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, and the Trust Indenture Act of 1939, and recommends regulations to implement these statutes. Working closely with the Office of the Chief Accountant, the Division monitors the activities of the accounting profession, particularly the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB), that result in the formulation of generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP).

The Division''s staff provides guidance and counseling to registrants, prospective registrants, and the public to help them comply with the law. For example, a company might ask whether the offering of a particular security requires registration with the SEC. Corporation Finance would share its interpretation of the relevant securities regulations with the company and give it advice on compliance with the appropriate disclosure requirement. "
Furthermore regarding your second point they are a policing agency...for companies who publicly trade on the stock market. By filing the information with the SEC it does become a legal document and an open record for the public.
Point 3 your statement of "Conversion, nay, documented embezzlement!" There is no embezzlement case.
Your reply that my comments were hyperbole is nonsense as
they were neither extravagant nor an exaggeration which is what hyperbole means...You might want to look up that word as well when you check to see how to spell shill...
AMR will survive no need to sell off everything...and if your a union member perhaps the next time I go out for lunch for a hamburger you will be the one serving it to me....

 

[BDLDFW]

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3. Do you remember who Chrysler turned to when they nearly went under? Lee Iacocca paid himself one dollar his first year as president and CEO. Yes, he had performance bonuses and stock incentives. They were all tied to RESULTS! He delivered. He also established credibility with his various labor groups, mostly the UAW.
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Many wouldn''t be happy if Carty paid to work here, and that was before this fiasco.