United Airlines And The 767

[Ukridge]

A couple of months ago I posted a question as to why United does not match the morning Washington to London flight of BA with a 777 as well. It seems from the responses that this may be in the cards and one of the more informative posts mentioned the age differential among the 767s in United's stable. Some are a bit newer while some are the original models and if you will excuse the horse reference again, soon to be put out to pasture due to age.
Yet, now a certain Mr. C Munn is trumpeting the theory that Airways is going to purchase the 767-200 and open multiple destinations in Europe with them. Not knowing the different models, but remembering the previous threads, I thought that the 767-200s were no longer even used for open water flying - something as pertains to permission to use them in this role.
The question is then, why would United sell long-range aircraft so Airways can open new routes? Would not United be better doing so themselves or are these airplanes no longer fit for such duty? How can Airways pick them up and immediately set them in harness?
Cheers

 

[ua767fo]

Yet, now a certain Mr. C Munn is trumpeting the theory that Airways is going to purchase the 767-200 and open multiple destinations in Europe with them. Not knowing the different models, but remembering the previous threads, I thought that the 767-200s were no longer even used for open water flying - something as pertains to permission to use them in this role.

Of the 18 or so 767-200s, only about 6 or 7 are overwater aircraft. At present, they are overwater maintained, but are no longer ETOPs maintained. Non of the aircraft have the 8.33khz VHF radios, so therefore can not fly beyond the UK. Further, there have been technical problems with EGPWs installation/compatability.

To fly these aircraft to the European continent would be quite expensive. To bad, they are great flying aircraft. Btw, UAL flys them at a much lower GW than other airlines, MAX TO GW = 323K, about 40K lbs less than other airlines. I dont know if this is a paper limit for lower landing fees or a structural limitaion.

Denver, CO

 

[TravelDude]

ua767FO, thank you for a knowledgable response.

Now, I can go tell my mom I learned something new today.

 

[gatemech]

Of the 18 or so 767-200s, only about 6 or 7 are overwater aircraft. At present, they are overwater maintained, but are no longer ETOPs maintained. Non of the aircraft have the 8.33khz VHF radios, so therefore can not fly beyond the UK. Further, there have been technical problems with EGPWs installation/compatability.

If I remember there were originally 8 -222's converted to ETOPS. I thought a couple more were added later. I might be wrong. It happens. I think only a few are still flying. All were supposed to be retired last Jan. I kept hearing they were going away but we still fly some. Can't beat that F/C seat. More comfy than the new stuff.

 

[iflyjetz]

UKridge, Mr Munn has stated that RSA, a significant stakeholder in UAIR, owns several of UAL's 767s, which UAL leases from RSA. He has implied that RSA may very well take back those aircraft and lease them to UAIR.
This is a very realistic possibility. However, I would consider this to an ominous foreboding for UAIR.
Dr Bronner, UAIR chairman of the board and RSA CEO, appears to be siphoning off UAIR assets to RSA. It's an interesting twist on frank lorenzo's gutting of Eastern and shifting assets to Continental back in the 80s. UAIR recently launched an advertising campaign to attract travelers to Alabama. Alabama? Not exactly where I'd go to vacation (and, yes I've spent a couple of months in Mawngummry, er Montgomery). UAIR has shifted some of their aircraft maintenance work to Alabama. And now there's a rumor of UAIR leasing 767s from RSA. The 767s in question have little value in the open market; there's currently a glut of 767s parked in the southwest US.

As has been mentioned in several other threads, UAL has been planning on retiring these 767s for quite a while. Mr Munn has elected to make this normal event (retirement of aged aircraft) into some sort of UCT/ICT that beneifts UAIR. I have a diametrically opposite point of view. I consider such a transaction to significantly benefit UAL (shedding of old equipment) and hinder UAIR (acquiring older aircraft near the end of their lifespan at higher than market rates).

I would not at all be surprised to see Dr Bronner transfer as much of UAIR's $1.9 bil in cash to RSA as he can get away with prior to shuttering UAIR. It is eerily similar to how frank lorenzo stripped assets from Eastern back in the 80s. Mr Munn should concentrate on watching the weeds in his own yard rather than obsess over his neighbor's lawn.

And just so that I can claim credit for it, this is the second time that I've drawn parallels between Dr Bronner and Frank Lorenzo. I believe that I was the first to make this comparison. If this sinister plan does come to fruition, please make sure to properly credit me as the source.

 

[mga707]

If I remember there were originally 8 -222's converted to ETOPS. I thought a couple more were added later. I might be wrong. It happens. I think only a few are still flying. All were supposed to be retired last Jan. I kept hearing they were going away but we still fly some. Can't beat that F/C seat. More comfy than the new stuff.

According to the most recent jp (airline fleet reference book), UA does indeed have only 8 converted 767-222s.
N602UA and N605UA through N611UA. As of spring '03 (when the book went to press), three were stored at Victorville CA (602/610/611) which left 5 active aircraft at that time.
All are early 1982-83 vintage 767s, including the aircraft that operated the first revenue 767 service in the world in august 1982 (N606UA).

 

[azdryheat]

All UA 767-200's are owned. The last annual report I have is 2001 and on page 4 shows all 18 aircraft owned. A friend of mine just prchased several old TWA 767-200's, the last went for 2.5 mil. These aircraft are not desireable for the reasons previously stated here.

 

[Ukridge]

Iflyjetz wrote: "And just so that I can claim credit for it, this is the second time that I've drawn parallels between Dr Bronner and Frank Lorenzo. I believe that I was the first to make this comparison. If this sinister plan does come to fruition, please make sure to properly credit me as the source. "

Indeed Sir! You will be given full right of authorship although this is going to make another poster very sour as HE considers it a moral duty that we recognize him as the ur-poster. If you start to pip him at the post I can only imagine the reaction. At that point the attendant cup-bearers and the Greek Chorus that surrounds him with lilting ballads of his being first will fade from view.

Good info on the 767s. As I said, I thought there was a little more to the story than just a pure divestiture of assets. Apparently your Mr. Tilton is quite serious about keeping the band together.

 

[iflyjetz]

Apparently your Mr. Tilton is quite serious about keeping the band together.

Yes, I agree. And I expect him to have everyone set their amps to '11' next spring after emergence from bankruptcy.
(Reference to amp setting of 11 stolen from 'Spinal Tap')

 

[Ukridge]

'Spinal Tap'

Ah, one of the greats. I heard that a certain poster was going to play drums in one of the 'bands!"

 

[N230UA]

I've heard all the domestic 763s are being converted to 3-class configs.

Any truth to this rumor?

 

[JFK777]

Selling the 767-200 would be great, to rid UA of an old and undesirable engine/ airframe type. 763 should take the place of the 762.

What is left of UA international fleet. Seven 744's were sold to Thai & another 2 to the Dubai royal flight. How many 744's are left? How many 763's left?
Really the most important airplane is of course the 777. Ua has 60 or so, I don't know how many are transpacific? UA needs at least enoutgh 744 to fly to Sydney twice daily & Hong Kong 2 or 3 times daily, so thats about 10 aircraft. Where do the other 20 or so 744's fly to, many left in the dessert?

 

[TravelDude]

N23UA,

I heard that the new main line livery is coming the first of the year, is that the official version? Or your rendering?

Additionally, I heard the tail would look like the one in that pic and would have the new "united" (no more "united airlines"). But, I am not sure I like the look with "united" partially covering the windows in some pics. Put the name above the windows.

OK, what is the scoop? Everyone chime in!

 

[N230UA]

TravelDude, they're my renderings based on internal and external rumors.

737 Classic - Letters above the windows

737 Classic - Letters below windows

A319 - Letters above

 

[N230UA]

A319 - Letters below

747-400

777