I may be wrong but doesn't LUV have just a few employees that have been there longer than 10 years? Listen bud, B6 and Airtran and Frontier can spread there costs the same way LUV does. Hire new people, expand to new markets and steal your market share. It's pretty simple.boeing787 said:
United And The Atsb
- Thread starter ohcaptainron
- Start date
North by Northwest
Veteran
Busdrvr wrote:"Actually, U selling tickets on UAL at a price lower than UAL's is a constant gripe on the UAL side of the fence. In any case, the DAL, NWA, CAL alliance (also known as the Antique Aircraft Road Show) will implode when the financial situations at NWA and DAL reach critical mass (1.5 years from now" Armchair management form a BANKRUPT CARRIER. I think you had better be more concern about U and UAL being around period. The odds are that both NWA and DAL will be flying former Ual/ Pan Am routes left behind by the disposed of United Airlines. It is amazing how some folks at United spend more time worring about the airlines that are NOT in bankruptcy then fixing there own one winged airliner. If you can't survive outside of bankruptcy what does that say. Furthermore, at least NWA can afford to borrow no matter how large it's debt is. Perhaps it's time to go out and show that the markets are still lending money...that is to creditworthy concerns. Let's see, the "antique roadshow" pays their bills and the airlines with credit ratings of an F can't. Maybe it's time for UAL to start looking into some used DC-9s. I heard they have worked wonders for an airline that has the highest rasm of it's competitors. It sure is nice to fly those beautiful new 333 and not worry bout the collector coming after them. Guess it all boils down to NWA knowing how to manage an airline and a bankrupt one does not. So frankly, the age of one part of NWA's fleet is of no importance when Ual's is owned by someone else. This has been a fav jab line of yours for sometime and it is simply ridiculous. If UAL was operating on par with NWA then it would not be so funny... but it really is VERY funny.
North by Northwest
Veteran
Busdrvr wrote:"UAL has the number of 400's thatthey have because NWA ordered them AND COULDN'T PAY FOR THEM" Sounds like a shrewed (Northwest )move to sucker your competitor in to buying un-needed aircraft. Wonder what other STUPID UAL management decisions NWA forced upon them. Don't spend anymore time reading Norhwest's Annual...focus on the definition of BANKRUPT. 😀
North by Northwest
Veteran
My God Busdrve you just don't get enough do you. This is the SAME mantra that you try to bring up once before. Didn't the date on that article say 1991...13 years ago. repaid with OBLIGATIONS of job creations MET. UNLIKE the financial DISASTER of Ual with the state of Indiana and that HUGE maint. station abandoned. Geeze almost forgot... Ual had or has to pay $200 million in penalties for not living up to it's State of Indiana loan obligations. Brilliant crew over there at Ual. 😛h34r: "The construction bonds are delayed by a lawsuit." Do you REALLY want to bring something like this up? With all do respect (snicker) Seems like Minn, has a lot more confidence in NWA than Il/Co."NWA is hoarding cash for a reason!! Be afraid, be very afraid" BECAUSE WE CAN...can UAL? Please keep it going, we(Northwest) are rolling on the floor. (in $3 BILLION cash)Busdrvr said:
"It is amazing how some folks at United spend more time worring about the airlines that are NOT in bankruptcy then fixing there own one winged airliner"
Yet you're on the UAL board.... 🙄
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040510/delta_bankruptcy_43.html
NWA long term debt maturities
2004 668 Million
2005 1.49 Billion
2006 781 million
2007 732 million
2008 515 million
Next five years approx 4.2 BILLION in LT debt comes due. Last 300 million in financing was done at 11%. What do you think the market will want for 4.2 BILLION. Especially from a company that is losing market share in it's most lucrative market (Pac) to it's virtually debt free US competitor (UAL). A UAL collapse seems to be NWA's only hope long term, so the lobbying doesn't surprise me in the least.
Yet you're on the UAL board.... 🙄
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040510/delta_bankruptcy_43.html
NWA long term debt maturities
2004 668 Million
2005 1.49 Billion
2006 781 million
2007 732 million
2008 515 million
Next five years approx 4.2 BILLION in LT debt comes due. Last 300 million in financing was done at 11%. What do you think the market will want for 4.2 BILLION. Especially from a company that is losing market share in it's most lucrative market (Pac) to it's virtually debt free US competitor (UAL). A UAL collapse seems to be NWA's only hope long term, so the lobbying doesn't surprise me in the least.
Generally speaking, well-operated airlines are able to refinance/repackage their debt obligations with little more than a few phone calls and meetings with the lenders; United was unable to do this, and therefore had to file for bankruptcy to fend off its creditors (e.g., KfW).Busdrvr said:
North by Northwest
Veteran
2004 UAL BANKRUPT....need I say more. Jealousy will get you BANKRUPT. 😛Busdrvr said:
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Perhaps, but as a potential lender down the road, which would you choose? One that managed it's debt obligations reasonably, or one that had to resort to bankruptcy to get its house in order? You’re fooling yourself if you don’t think this little tidbit will be factored into United’s cost of capital going forward.
North by Northwest
Veteran
Largest World Economies
No. Country GDP $US trillions
1 USA 10,208
2 Japan 4,149
As you know Busdrvr, Ual includes the South Pacific nations of Australia/New Zealand in their "Asia" fingures. We all know that they are not Asian nations. Moreover, Ual's Japan traffic pales in comparison to NWA's, the largest non-Japanese carrier into Japan ( the world's 2ed largest economy). Furthermore, what subject would you like to focus on? You jump from our old 9's to our debt to our large cash balances to our "losing" market share, whew! On a more informative note, Ual WILL have debt upon exiting BANKRUPTCY...and PLENTY of it. Secured debtors do not go away. Good luck in trying to find financing at any rate. THAT is the REAL reason the ATSB is of such paramount importance to Ual. The ATSB loan is Ual's last and only hope before chapter 7...So you just continue on (as you have done for several years on this board) preaching and praying for Northwest's demise. Alas, a self fulfilling prophecy is unfolding before your very eyes...yet it is not Northwest's, but United's painful grounding
No. Country GDP $US trillions
1 USA 10,208
2 Japan 4,149
As you know Busdrvr, Ual includes the South Pacific nations of Australia/New Zealand in their "Asia" fingures. We all know that they are not Asian nations. Moreover, Ual's Japan traffic pales in comparison to NWA's, the largest non-Japanese carrier into Japan ( the world's 2ed largest economy). Furthermore, what subject would you like to focus on? You jump from our old 9's to our debt to our large cash balances to our "losing" market share, whew! On a more informative note, Ual WILL have debt upon exiting BANKRUPTCY...and PLENTY of it. Secured debtors do not go away. Good luck in trying to find financing at any rate. THAT is the REAL reason the ATSB is of such paramount importance to Ual. The ATSB loan is Ual's last and only hope before chapter 7...So you just continue on (as you have done for several years on this board) preaching and praying for Northwest's demise. Alas, a self fulfilling prophecy is unfolding before your very eyes...yet it is not Northwest's, but United's painful grounding
"Generally speaking, well-operated airlines are able to refinance/repackage their debt obligations with little more than a few phone calls and meetings with the lenders; United was unable to do this, and therefore had to file for bankruptcy to fend off its creditors (e.g., KfW)"
You mean like UAL was able to do every single year before 911? Wait, that's what the ATSB was supposed to prevent right? How well will so called "well run" companies, that have negative shareholder equities and a 4 year run of losses, be able to refinance debt? Don't know? Well the fact that it cost them 11% to finance just 300 million should be some sort of clue. Now try to put together a deal for 1.5 BILLION in ONE YEAR with 780 MILLION due just within the next year alone. That is similar to the situation UAL was in. they were unlucky in that 911 happened the year before UAL had a large level of debt due. Think how the situation would have been diff if 911 had happened immediately following AMR's 1 minute strike, or NWA's prolonged pilot strike in the late 90's. Also consider if it had happened a few years later, after NWA, and AMR had at least matched UAL's pay rates, and UAL had already rolled over it's large long term debt principle due in 2002
"No. Country GDP $US trillions
1 USA 10,208
2 Japan 4,149
As you know Busdrvr, Ual includes the South Pacific nations of Australia/New Zealand in their "Asia" fingures. We all know that they are not Asian nations."
UAL doesn't serve New Zealand. In any case:
Projected GDP growth rates
2004 2005
Japan 3.3% 2.0%
Australia 3.9% 3.1%
Emerging Market Rates of Growth
China 9.7%
Hong Kong 5.0%
Which basket/ baskets would you put all your eggs in?
"Secured debtors do not go away. Good luck in trying to find financing at any rate."
Actually, secured Debt can be renegotiated, but you'll find that out the hard way... But then again, most of NWA's debt is unsecured. But look at the bright side. Unsecured debt has higher interest rates...
"So you just continue on (as you have done for several years on this board) preaching and praying for Northwest's demise. Alas, a self fulfilling prophecy is unfolding before your very eyes...yet it is not Northwest's, but United's painful grounding"
Unlike some jerks on this board, I don't hope for other airlines failures. That's reserved for a special breed of scumbag...... I merely point out the situation other self rightous corps are in, and note that there is a deeper motive for the lobbying effort than benevolence toward taxpayers. But ignorance is bliss isn't it.
You mean like UAL was able to do every single year before 911? Wait, that's what the ATSB was supposed to prevent right? How well will so called "well run" companies, that have negative shareholder equities and a 4 year run of losses, be able to refinance debt? Don't know? Well the fact that it cost them 11% to finance just 300 million should be some sort of clue. Now try to put together a deal for 1.5 BILLION in ONE YEAR with 780 MILLION due just within the next year alone. That is similar to the situation UAL was in. they were unlucky in that 911 happened the year before UAL had a large level of debt due. Think how the situation would have been diff if 911 had happened immediately following AMR's 1 minute strike, or NWA's prolonged pilot strike in the late 90's. Also consider if it had happened a few years later, after NWA, and AMR had at least matched UAL's pay rates, and UAL had already rolled over it's large long term debt principle due in 2002
"No. Country GDP $US trillions
1 USA 10,208
2 Japan 4,149
As you know Busdrvr, Ual includes the South Pacific nations of Australia/New Zealand in their "Asia" fingures. We all know that they are not Asian nations."
UAL doesn't serve New Zealand. In any case:
Projected GDP growth rates
2004 2005
Japan 3.3% 2.0%
Australia 3.9% 3.1%
Emerging Market Rates of Growth
China 9.7%
Hong Kong 5.0%
Which basket/ baskets would you put all your eggs in?
"Secured debtors do not go away. Good luck in trying to find financing at any rate."
Actually, secured Debt can be renegotiated, but you'll find that out the hard way... But then again, most of NWA's debt is unsecured. But look at the bright side. Unsecured debt has higher interest rates...
"So you just continue on (as you have done for several years on this board) preaching and praying for Northwest's demise. Alas, a self fulfilling prophecy is unfolding before your very eyes...yet it is not Northwest's, but United's painful grounding"
Unlike some jerks on this board, I don't hope for other airlines failures. That's reserved for a special breed of scumbag...... I merely point out the situation other self rightous corps are in, and note that there is a deeper motive for the lobbying effort than benevolence toward taxpayers. But ignorance is bliss isn't it.
North by Northwest
Veteran
I would try to reply to your response but it is rife with "What ifs". I just let the FACTS speak for themselves: DIRECT COMPETITOR COMPARISONBusdrvr said:"Generally speaking, well-operated airlines are able to refinance/repackage their debt obligations with little more than a few phone calls and meetings with the lenders; United was unable to do this, and therefore had to file for bankruptcy to fend off its creditors (e.g., KfW)"
You mean like UAL was able to do every single year before 911? Wait, that's what the ATSB was supposed to prevent right? How well will so called "well run" companies, that have negative shareholder equities and a 4 year run of losses, be able to refinance debt? Don't know? Well the fact that it cost them 11% to finance just 300 million should be some sort of clue. Now try to put together a deal for 1.5 BILLION in ONE YEAR with 780 MILLION due just within the next year alone. That is similar to the situation UAL was in. they were unlucky in that 911 happened the year before UAL had a large level of debt due. Think how the situation would have been diff if 911 had happened immediately following AMR's 1 minute strike, or NWA's prolonged pilot strike in the late 90's. Also consider if it had happened a few years later, after NWA, and AMR had at least matched UAL's pay rates, and UAL had already rolled over it's large long term debt principle due in 2002
"No. Country GDP $US trillions
1 USA 10,208
2 Japan 4,149
As you know Busdrvr, Ual includes the South Pacific nations of Australia/New Zealand in their "Asia" fingures. We all know that they are not Asian nations."
UAL doesn't serve New Zealand. In any case:
Projected GDP growth rates
2004 2005
Japan 3.3% 2.0%
Australia 3.9% 3.1%
Emerging Market Rates of Growth
China 9.7%
Hong Kong 5.0%
Which basket/ baskets would you put all your eggs in?
"Secured debtors do not go away. Good luck in trying to find financing at any rate."
Actually, secured Debt can be renegotiated, but you'll find that out the hard way... But then again, most of NWA's debt is unsecured. But look at the bright side. Unsecured debt has higher interest rates...
"So you just continue on (as you have done for several years on this board) preaching and praying for Northwest's demise. Alas, a self fulfilling prophecy is unfolding before your very eyes...yet it is not Northwest's, but United's painful grounding"
Unlike some jerks on this board, I don't hope for other airlines failures. That's reserved for a special breed of scumbag...... I merely point out the situation other self rightous corps are in, and note that there is a deeper motive for the lobbying effort than benevolence toward taxpayers. But ignorance is bliss isn't it.
NWAC / AMR / DAL / UALAQ.OB
Market Cap: 779.30M / 1.75B / 570.49M / / 116.28M
EmployÂees: 39,100 / 96,400/ 70,600/ 63,000
Rev. Growth (ttm): N/A/ -8.80%/ -0.00%/ -11.50%
Revenue (ttm): 9.86B/ 17.83B / 13.44B / 14.27B
Gross Margin (ttm): 9.62% / 21.22%/ 8.45%/ 11.47%
EBITDA (ttm): 321.00M / 1.43B / 407.00M / 461.00M
Oper. Margins (ttm):-2.79%/ 0.38%/ -5.98%/ -3.52%
Net Income (ttm): 409.00M / -349.00M / -703.00M / -1.93B
EPS (ttm): 4.447/ -2.206/ -5.769/ -18.223
PE (ttm): 2.04 / N/A / N/A/ N/A
PEG (ttm): N/A / N/A / N/A / N/A
PS (ttm): 0.08/ 0.09 / 0.04/ 0
The comparison of Japan and Australia/Hong Kong is really unfair. Japan economy is at least 8-10 times larger. As for China, NWA has had that covered for many years. "That's reserved for a special breed of scumbag...... " As for that comment, I think many on this board knows who fits those shoes perfectly.
North by Northwest
Veteran
Northwest Airlines SELECTED BALANCE SHEET DATA
March 31, ___ December 31,
2004 2003
(in millions)
Cash, cash equivalents and
unrestricted short-term investments $2,936 ___ $2,757
Restricted short-term investments 172 ___ 126
Total cash, cash equivalents and
short-term investments 3,108 ___ 2,883
Total assets 14,433 ____ 14,154
Long-term debt, including current
maturities 8,054 ____ 7,866
Long-term obligations under capital
leases, including current
obligations 390 ____ 419
March 31, ___ December 31,
2004 2003
(in millions)
Cash, cash equivalents and
unrestricted short-term investments $2,936 ___ $2,757
Restricted short-term investments 172 ___ 126
Total cash, cash equivalents and
short-term investments 3,108 ___ 2,883
Total assets 14,433 ____ 14,154
Long-term debt, including current
maturities 8,054 ____ 7,866
Long-term obligations under capital
leases, including current
obligations 390 ____ 419
North by Northwest
Veteran
No .....but I'm voting for KERRY! And yes I will head North! 😀 😉
And yes I will head North! 😀 😉
