USA320Pilot
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Us Airlines Say Pension Costs Could
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PITbull
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USA320Pilot said:
I hope they can get their pensions saved. Once airlines realize that they cannot dump pensions that easily, they will think twice about just walking into BK for a "free pass".
Too bad for USAirways employees. We were the ginea pigs, lost all our pensions while the co. enjoyed to BK to force labor into severe concessions, and managment walks away millioinaires on our backs.
GM is next. Hopefully the judges will see this and Congress will change the BK legislation that does not allow companies to dump pensions in BK. If they can not pay pension liabilities, then they should never be permitted to emerge from a BK until they can. These corporations should not be permitted to dump these pensions on the tax payers.
For USAirways employees, we only negotiated to freeze the pensions, but that just wasn't good enough for our managment who made sure they presevered their pensions.
They are disqusting people that hold these concepts and ideologies.
USA320Pilot
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PITbull:
I hope the other legacy carriers have their pensions saved too, but I'm hearing the Bush Adminstration lead by Secretary Snow has not changed his position (even with yesterday's testimony on Capital Hill).
Senator's Specter and Santorum held their Committee hearings on the US Airways ALPA DB pension termination and tried to save employee DB Plans, but Snow and George Bush's chief of staff Andrew Card let it be known that they favored DB Plan terminations and DC Plan and 401(k) replacements.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
I hope the other legacy carriers have their pensions saved too, but I'm hearing the Bush Adminstration lead by Secretary Snow has not changed his position (even with yesterday's testimony on Capital Hill).
Senator's Specter and Santorum held their Committee hearings on the US Airways ALPA DB pension termination and tried to save employee DB Plans, but Snow and George Bush's chief of staff Andrew Card let it be known that they favored DB Plan terminations and DC Plan and 401(k) replacements.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
700UW said:
Hey big guy. Conversion of management pensions
to 401K plans would actually be a good thing. I'm
all for the concept of controlling my own future
and I'm surprised they haven't done that yet. Maybe
that is something that will be done prior to BK exit.
What's the big friggen deal anyway? Most LCC's
don't have DBP plans, and in order to compete,
the legacies are actually doing something right by
converting to 401K plans. Get over it. Make the
best of it. The only reason Congress is not on
board right now is because they want to gradually
shift DBP plans to 401K's to lessen the impact to
both the stock market and to the PBGC. It will
all come out in the wash over time.
What about the $35 million paid to Wolf, Gangwal and Nagin for their pension settlement?
What about the $7 milllion to Siegel and $2 million to Cohen?
And then every current executive's pension has been fully funded. And all of that money could have been recovered in Bankruptcy I and II.
If the employees lose their pension EVERY single executive should lose theirs too.
What is the big friggin deal?
Go ask the current retirees who are on a fixed income how it feels to have their pensions reduced and medical insurance rates increase while the likes of Siegel and every other single US Airways current and former executives have lifetime healthcare, travel and their pensions fully funded and then maybe you will have an idea of why it is a big deal.
And explain how a person who has taken three or more paycuts, paying much more for insurance is suppose to have enough income left to put into a 401K?
One more thing, who is going to make up the over $20 billion short fall in the PBGC?
What about the $7 milllion to Siegel and $2 million to Cohen?
And then every current executive's pension has been fully funded. And all of that money could have been recovered in Bankruptcy I and II.
If the employees lose their pension EVERY single executive should lose theirs too.
What is the big friggin deal?
Go ask the current retirees who are on a fixed income how it feels to have their pensions reduced and medical insurance rates increase while the likes of Siegel and every other single US Airways current and former executives have lifetime healthcare, travel and their pensions fully funded and then maybe you will have an idea of why it is a big deal.
And explain how a person who has taken three or more paycuts, paying much more for insurance is suppose to have enough income left to put into a 401K?
One more thing, who is going to make up the over $20 billion short fall in the PBGC?
PITbull
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SpinDoc said:
Spin,
What's the big friggen deal?????? Lessen the impact to the stock market by this conversion???? How so Einstien????? Folks lose money in the market because its mostly risky investing.
You're insane with this post!
WASHINGTON, D.C. – As the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) released its latest long-term deficit figures, House Republicans today vowed to move forward with comprehensive pension legislation next year to reform and strengthen the defined benefit system. The PBGC today reported a record long-term deficit of $23.3 billion for single employer plans, up from $11.2 billion last year.
PITbull
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The taxpayers can thank USAirways and United for placing the PBGC in a position of "insolvency" by shifting their responsibilities.
BK filings should never permit companies to screw with pension benefits that are protected by law. the pension holders are creditors that should be protected like GE and ATSB. There should be no emergence from BK unless the pensions payments are made. If a co. is in "straits", then they can negotiate freezing of pensions temporarily or permanently. But BK should not be an avenue to terminate these benefits.
THERE IS NO REPRESENTATION FOR THE WORKING AMERICAN IN THIS COUNTRY.
This Congress would rather spend their focus on private issues like the Terry Shiavo case and filibusting or who can't have an abortion or lives who dies,, and who to rage war on. There is too much extremism in this Country.
This Administration wants to reform Social Security that will cost $2 trillion in the next 10 years, public education is going down the shitter, outsourcing all our jobs, no energy independence!
Where are the candidates that will address these issues?????
People come to the position of what's good for the Country much quicker than the politicians.
BK filings should never permit companies to screw with pension benefits that are protected by law. the pension holders are creditors that should be protected like GE and ATSB. There should be no emergence from BK unless the pensions payments are made. If a co. is in "straits", then they can negotiate freezing of pensions temporarily or permanently. But BK should not be an avenue to terminate these benefits.
THERE IS NO REPRESENTATION FOR THE WORKING AMERICAN IN THIS COUNTRY.
This Congress would rather spend their focus on private issues like the Terry Shiavo case and filibusting or who can't have an abortion or lives who dies,, and who to rage war on. There is too much extremism in this Country.
This Administration wants to reform Social Security that will cost $2 trillion in the next 10 years, public education is going down the shitter, outsourcing all our jobs, no energy independence!
Where are the candidates that will address these issues?????
People come to the position of what's good for the Country much quicker than the politicians.
PITbull
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Spin,
Never the end of this discussion. Many execs hold jobs NOT BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT NOR DO MANY HAVE THE EDUCATION OR EXPERIENCE TO BE THERE. Many of the rank and file hold the SAME DEGREES as some of the Execs.
This I know for fact, as I make it my business.
All contracts are up for negotiations, hell, Dave Siegel lost his job over it because ALPA didn't want to deal with him. Many of the concessions by managment were not voluntary. They were forced by public scurtiny from exposure and shame.
And, we will wait and see what the judge rules on the "retention/severance bullllshitt.
Never the end of this discussion. Many execs hold jobs NOT BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT NOR DO MANY HAVE THE EDUCATION OR EXPERIENCE TO BE THERE. Many of the rank and file hold the SAME DEGREES as some of the Execs.
This I know for fact, as I make it my business.
All contracts are up for negotiations, hell, Dave Siegel lost his job over it because ALPA didn't want to deal with him. Many of the concessions by managment were not voluntary. They were forced by public scurtiny from exposure and shame.
And, we will wait and see what the judge rules on the "retention/severance bullllshitt.
ClueByFour
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SpinDoc said:
If you started your career with an LCC and knew from the beginning it was a matched 401k and profit-sharing, it's one thing. To expect a DB plan for 20+ years and have it whacked is something else.
Changing the rules in the middle of the game is bad karma, especially to those who make more modest sums of money on a yearly basis (and may have had lifelong financial plans accordingly).
The unions did not sell out anyone, if you remember correctly the IAM M&R never reached a t/a and the pension was terminated on by Judge Mitchell on 1/6/05 not by a membership vote.
And the unions had no choice but to negotiate because of the section 1113 filings, hey the unions should file section 1113 to abrogate the executive contract, a contract is a contract, the union members and the executives both work under employment agreements.
Like I said, explain how someone who has taken several paycuts and paying more for insurance can just cut even more so they can contribute to a 401k, seems you did not answer that in your post.
And someone who is retired and on a fixed income cannot just be vigilant when their pensions are terminated and reduced and insurance prices doubled. Seems you forgot to actually answer that question too.
And please show me and explain to me how a contract between US and a union can be changed at a union's "whim" as you say. Never saw that in the Railway Labor Act.
And the IAM M&R lost almost 50% of the membership on the property, so it seems you deductive reasoning skills are wrong in your statement once again.
And the unions had no choice but to negotiate because of the section 1113 filings, hey the unions should file section 1113 to abrogate the executive contract, a contract is a contract, the union members and the executives both work under employment agreements.
Like I said, explain how someone who has taken several paycuts and paying more for insurance can just cut even more so they can contribute to a 401k, seems you did not answer that in your post.
And someone who is retired and on a fixed income cannot just be vigilant when their pensions are terminated and reduced and insurance prices doubled. Seems you forgot to actually answer that question too.
And please show me and explain to me how a contract between US and a union can be changed at a union's "whim" as you say. Never saw that in the Railway Labor Act.
And the IAM M&R lost almost 50% of the membership on the property, so it seems you deductive reasoning skills are wrong in your statement once again.
PITbull said:
Actually, MY personal investments have beat the crap out of the performance of the "experts" running the UAL pension plans... Plus in "good times" the comany doesn't have to fund the pension (market gains keep it "fully funded") so they don't. they do silly sh1t like buying back stock instead. The problem with pension termination is the damage to those gone before who lose out. If however you are just starting with a company, you'd be nuts to want a DBP. I think the record of failures speak for itself....
