ITRADE
Veteran
US Airways Set To Terminate Existing Pension On March 31
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030130/1745001106_1.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030130/1745001106_1.html
US Airways Files for Distress Termination of Pilot Defined Benefit Pension Plan and Approval of a Ne
- Thread starter ITRADE
- Start date
Flufdriver
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 396
- 6
......what else do you want Dave....."Labor Friendly My A**. Drop the first bomb W, Dave don't just take 5%...here, take10%. Must keep Bonehead in Alabama happy!!!
Press Release Source: US Airways
US Airways Files for Distress Termination of Pilot Defined Benefit Pension Plan and Approval of a New Pilot Defined Contribution Pension Plan
Thursday January 30, 4:36 pm ET
Company Commits $850 Million Over Next Seven Years to Fund Pilot Pensions
New Defined Contribution Plan to Adhere to December 2002 ALPA Agreement
If Approved, PBGC to Administer Benefits of Existing Defined Benefit Plan as Part of Plan for Airline to Emerge from Chapter 11 by March 31
ARLINGTON, Va., Jan. 30 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- US Airways has filed formal notice with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) of its intent to terminate the existing defined benefit pension plan for its pilots effective March 31, 2003, and to replace that plan with a defined contribution plan that will commit the company to invest $850 million in pilot pension contributions for more than 3,700 pilots over the next seven years, consistent with an agreement made with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) in December 2002. Separately, a similar motion will be filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court later today.
The intent to terminate was the only remaining option for the company after regulatory and legislative efforts to allow for a stretch-out of funding obligations for the plan through a restoration funding proposal were denied, on legal grounds by the PBGC and defeated by the U.S. Senate. Today's action initiates a 60-day process, by which if approved by the Bankruptcy Court and the PBGC, should result in termination of the current defined benefit plan in conjunction with US Airways' planned emergence from Chapter 11 on March 31, 2003, if no legislative relief is granted by that date.
"We are communicating directly with our pilots on the reasons for this action, as well as to underscore our commitment to fund a replacement defined contribution plan under the guidelines of an agreement that was made with ALPA in December, should a plan termination be required," said David Siegel, US Airways president and chief executive officer. "Under that agreement with ALPA, the company will contribute $850 million over the next seven years to a new defined contribution plan. While our preference was to find a way to prevent plan termination of the existing defined benefit plan -- and we will continue to seek a legislative solution should Congress address pension funding issues this year -- we believe we have constructed a replacement defined contribution plan that provides our pilots with a competitive pension that targets the equivalent of a $1 million pension package for a captain retiring after 30 years of service."
"I have tremendous admiration and appreciation for the leadership the pilots have shown in leading all employee groups with pay and productivity concessions, which is why we have worked so hard to find a solution. We are committing an amount equal to an average of 27 percent of total pilot wages to be contributed to new pension accounts that will be at a targeted contribution level for each pilot, based on age and seniority," said Siegel.
Siegel said that the PBGC has indicated that it will not oppose the proposed follow-on pension plan. The funding levels for the new pension plan are consistent with the company's plan of reorganization. Separately, the company is awaiting the final approval from the Air Transportation Stabilization Board (ATSB) on its application for a $900 million federal guarantee of a $1 billion loan. The proceeds from the loan, as well as a $240 million investment from the Retirement Systems of Alabama (RSA), would provide the airline with new capital, available upon emergence from Chapter 11.
The PBGC regulates pension plan terminations. The company said that during its discussion with the PBGC on a proposed replacement plan, it was made clear that a replacement plan must be a defined contribution plan and cannot replicate current defined benefit plan benefits. The company expressed appreciation to the PBGC for its expeditious review of its proposed replacement plan, and its flexibility in allowing a plan that takes into account the unique factors of the pilot work force, including federal regulations that require commercial airline pilots to retire at age 60.
The company has made adequate contributions to the plan, but the value of the assets has declined with the prolonged bear market and the lowest interest rates in 40 years. Those factors led to future funding obligations the company could not meet under the emergence business plan contained in its Disclosure Statement that is being mailed to creditors on Jan. 31, 2003, in connection with the plan solicitation procedures also approved by the Bankruptcy Court on Jan. 17, 2003.
The company's motion for termination is scheduled to be heard before Judge Stephen S. Mitchell at an omnibus hearing on Feb. 20, 2003. Objections to the motion must be filed and served no later than Feb. 13, 2003.
"In the coming weeks, we will be making more information available to current pilots and retirees about the proposed termination," said Siegel. "On an individual level, we will be able to give each active pilot an estimate of what their defined benefit from the existing plan will be as administered by the PBGC, as well as what the target contribution will be for the new plan. We completely understand how important this matter is to pilots and their families, which is why we want to quickly make detailed information available."
On Jan. 17, 2003, US Airways was given authorization by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court of the Eastern District of Virginia in Alexandria to solicit approval from its creditors on its plan of reorganization that provides for the airline's emergence from Chapter 11 protection in March 2003. On Jan. 31, 2003, the company will mail notice of the hearing on the final approval of its plan of reorganization scheduled for March 18, 2003, to more than 144,000 interested parties. The mailing will initiate a 38-day process in which qualified claim holders will be allowed to vote on the company's plan. The disclosure statement and plan of reorganization assume a solution to the pension-funding obligation.
Bankruptcy law does not permit solicitation of acceptances of the Plan until the Bankruptcy Court approves the applicable Disclosure Statement relating to the Plan as providing adequate information of a kind, and in sufficient detail, as far as is reasonably practicable in light of the nature and history of the debtor and the condition of the debtor's books and records, that would enable a hypothetical reasonable investor typical of the holder of claims or interests of the relevant class to make an informed judgment about the Plan. On Jan. 17, 2003, the Bankruptcy Court approved the company's Disclosure Statement with respect to its First Amended Plan of Reorganization and authorized a balloting and solicitation process that will commence on Jan. 31, 2003, and conclude on March 10, 2003. A hearing on confirmation of the First Amended Plan of Reorganization is scheduled to commence in the Bankruptcy Court on March 18, 2003. Accordingly, this announcement is not intended to be, nor should it be construed as, a solicitation for a vote on the Plan, which can only occur based on the official disclosure statement package that is being mailed on Jan. 31, 2003. The company will emerge from Chapter 11 if and when the Plan receives the requisite creditor approvals and is confirmed by the Bankruptcy Court.
Certain of the information contained in the Plan and Disclosure Statement should be considered "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 that reflect the company's current views with respect to current events and financial performance. Such forward looking statements are and will be, as the case may be, subject to many risks, uncertainties and factors relating to the company's operations and business environment which may cause the actual results of the company to be materially different from any future results, express or implied, by such forward-looking statements. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from these forward-looking statements include, but are not limited to, the following: the ability of the company to continue as a going concern; the ability of the company to operate pursuant to the terms of the DIP facility; the company's ability to obtain court approval with respect to motions in the Chapter 11 proceeding prosecuted by it from time to time; the ability of the company to develop, prosecute, confirm and consummate one or more plans of reorganization with respect to the Chapter 11 cases; risks associated with third parties seeking and obtaining court approval to terminate or shorten the exclusivity period for the company to propose and confirm one or more plans of reorganization, for the appointment of a Chapter 11 trustee or to convert the cases to Chapter 7 cases; the ability of the company to obtain and maintain normal terms with vendors and service providers; the company's ability to maintain contracts that are critical to its operations; the potential adverse impact of the Chapter 11 cases on the company's liquidity or results of operations; the ability of the company to fund and execute its business plan; the ability of the company to attract, motivate and/or retain key executives and associates; and the ability of the company to attract and retain customers; demand for transportation in the markets in which the company operates; economic conditions; labor costs; financing costs; aviation fuel costs; security-related costs; competitive pressures on pricing (particularly from lower-cost competitors); weather conditions; government legislation and regulation; consumer perceptions of the company's products; and other risks and uncertainties listed from time to time in the company's reports to the United States Securities and Exchange Commission. Other factors and assumptions not identified above are also involved in the preparation of forward-looking statements, and the failure of such other factors and assumptions to be realized may also cause actual results to differ materially from those discussed. The company assumes no obligation to update such estimates to reflect actual results, changes in assumptions or changes in other factors affecting such estimates other than as required by law. Similarly, these and other factors, including the terms of any plan of reorganization ultimately confirmed, can affect the value of the company's various pre-petition liabilities, common stock and/or other equity securities. No assurance can be given as to what values, if any, will be ascribed in the bankruptcy proceedings to each of these constituencies. Accordingly, the company urges that the appropriate caution be exercised with respect to existing and future investments in any of these liabilities and/or securities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: US Airways
US Airways Files for Distress Termination of Pilot Defined Benefit Pension Plan and Approval of a New Pilot Defined Contribution Pension Plan
Thursday January 30, 4:36 pm ET
Company Commits $850 Million Over Next Seven Years to Fund Pilot Pensions
New Defined Contribution Plan to Adhere to December 2002 ALPA Agreement
If Approved, PBGC to Administer Benefits of Existing Defined Benefit Plan as Part of Plan for Airline to Emerge from Chapter 11 by March 31
ARLINGTON, Va., Jan. 30 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- US Airways has filed formal notice with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) of its intent to terminate the existing defined benefit pension plan for its pilots effective March 31, 2003, and to replace that plan with a defined contribution plan that will commit the company to invest $850 million in pilot pension contributions for more than 3,700 pilots over the next seven years, consistent with an agreement made with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) in December 2002. Separately, a similar motion will be filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court later today.
The intent to terminate was the only remaining option for the company after regulatory and legislative efforts to allow for a stretch-out of funding obligations for the plan through a restoration funding proposal were denied, on legal grounds by the PBGC and defeated by the U.S. Senate. Today's action initiates a 60-day process, by which if approved by the Bankruptcy Court and the PBGC, should result in termination of the current defined benefit plan in conjunction with US Airways' planned emergence from Chapter 11 on March 31, 2003, if no legislative relief is granted by that date.
"We are communicating directly with our pilots on the reasons for this action, as well as to underscore our commitment to fund a replacement defined contribution plan under the guidelines of an agreement that was made with ALPA in December, should a plan termination be required," said David Siegel, US Airways president and chief executive officer. "Under that agreement with ALPA, the company will contribute $850 million over the next seven years to a new defined contribution plan. While our preference was to find a way to prevent plan termination of the existing defined benefit plan -- and we will continue to seek a legislative solution should Congress address pension funding issues this year -- we believe we have constructed a replacement defined contribution plan that provides our pilots with a competitive pension that targets the equivalent of a $1 million pension package for a captain retiring after 30 years of service."
"I have tremendous admiration and appreciation for the leadership the pilots have shown in leading all employee groups with pay and productivity concessions, which is why we have worked so hard to find a solution. We are committing an amount equal to an average of 27 percent of total pilot wages to be contributed to new pension accounts that will be at a targeted contribution level for each pilot, based on age and seniority," said Siegel.
Siegel said that the PBGC has indicated that it will not oppose the proposed follow-on pension plan. The funding levels for the new pension plan are consistent with the company's plan of reorganization. Separately, the company is awaiting the final approval from the Air Transportation Stabilization Board (ATSB) on its application for a $900 million federal guarantee of a $1 billion loan. The proceeds from the loan, as well as a $240 million investment from the Retirement Systems of Alabama (RSA), would provide the airline with new capital, available upon emergence from Chapter 11.
The PBGC regulates pension plan terminations. The company said that during its discussion with the PBGC on a proposed replacement plan, it was made clear that a replacement plan must be a defined contribution plan and cannot replicate current defined benefit plan benefits. The company expressed appreciation to the PBGC for its expeditious review of its proposed replacement plan, and its flexibility in allowing a plan that takes into account the unique factors of the pilot work force, including federal regulations that require commercial airline pilots to retire at age 60.
The company has made adequate contributions to the plan, but the value of the assets has declined with the prolonged bear market and the lowest interest rates in 40 years. Those factors led to future funding obligations the company could not meet under the emergence business plan contained in its Disclosure Statement that is being mailed to creditors on Jan. 31, 2003, in connection with the plan solicitation procedures also approved by the Bankruptcy Court on Jan. 17, 2003.
The company's motion for termination is scheduled to be heard before Judge Stephen S. Mitchell at an omnibus hearing on Feb. 20, 2003. Objections to the motion must be filed and served no later than Feb. 13, 2003.
"In the coming weeks, we will be making more information available to current pilots and retirees about the proposed termination," said Siegel. "On an individual level, we will be able to give each active pilot an estimate of what their defined benefit from the existing plan will be as administered by the PBGC, as well as what the target contribution will be for the new plan. We completely understand how important this matter is to pilots and their families, which is why we want to quickly make detailed information available."
On Jan. 17, 2003, US Airways was given authorization by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court of the Eastern District of Virginia in Alexandria to solicit approval from its creditors on its plan of reorganization that provides for the airline's emergence from Chapter 11 protection in March 2003. On Jan. 31, 2003, the company will mail notice of the hearing on the final approval of its plan of reorganization scheduled for March 18, 2003, to more than 144,000 interested parties. The mailing will initiate a 38-day process in which qualified claim holders will be allowed to vote on the company's plan. The disclosure statement and plan of reorganization assume a solution to the pension-funding obligation.
Bankruptcy law does not permit solicitation of acceptances of the Plan until the Bankruptcy Court approves the applicable Disclosure Statement relating to the Plan as providing adequate information of a kind, and in sufficient detail, as far as is reasonably practicable in light of the nature and history of the debtor and the condition of the debtor's books and records, that would enable a hypothetical reasonable investor typical of the holder of claims or interests of the relevant class to make an informed judgment about the Plan. On Jan. 17, 2003, the Bankruptcy Court approved the company's Disclosure Statement with respect to its First Amended Plan of Reorganization and authorized a balloting and solicitation process that will commence on Jan. 31, 2003, and conclude on March 10, 2003. A hearing on confirmation of the First Amended Plan of Reorganization is scheduled to commence in the Bankruptcy Court on March 18, 2003. Accordingly, this announcement is not intended to be, nor should it be construed as, a solicitation for a vote on the Plan, which can only occur based on the official disclosure statement package that is being mailed on Jan. 31, 2003. The company will emerge from Chapter 11 if and when the Plan receives the requisite creditor approvals and is confirmed by the Bankruptcy Court.
Certain of the information contained in the Plan and Disclosure Statement should be considered "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 that reflect the company's current views with respect to current events and financial performance. Such forward looking statements are and will be, as the case may be, subject to many risks, uncertainties and factors relating to the company's operations and business environment which may cause the actual results of the company to be materially different from any future results, express or implied, by such forward-looking statements. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from these forward-looking statements include, but are not limited to, the following: the ability of the company to continue as a going concern; the ability of the company to operate pursuant to the terms of the DIP facility; the company's ability to obtain court approval with respect to motions in the Chapter 11 proceeding prosecuted by it from time to time; the ability of the company to develop, prosecute, confirm and consummate one or more plans of reorganization with respect to the Chapter 11 cases; risks associated with third parties seeking and obtaining court approval to terminate or shorten the exclusivity period for the company to propose and confirm one or more plans of reorganization, for the appointment of a Chapter 11 trustee or to convert the cases to Chapter 7 cases; the ability of the company to obtain and maintain normal terms with vendors and service providers; the company's ability to maintain contracts that are critical to its operations; the potential adverse impact of the Chapter 11 cases on the company's liquidity or results of operations; the ability of the company to fund and execute its business plan; the ability of the company to attract, motivate and/or retain key executives and associates; and the ability of the company to attract and retain customers; demand for transportation in the markets in which the company operates; economic conditions; labor costs; financing costs; aviation fuel costs; security-related costs; competitive pressures on pricing (particularly from lower-cost competitors); weather conditions; government legislation and regulation; consumer perceptions of the company's products; and other risks and uncertainties listed from time to time in the company's reports to the United States Securities and Exchange Commission. Other factors and assumptions not identified above are also involved in the preparation of forward-looking statements, and the failure of such other factors and assumptions to be realized may also cause actual results to differ materially from those discussed. The company assumes no obligation to update such estimates to reflect actual results, changes in assumptions or changes in other factors affecting such estimates other than as required by law. Similarly, these and other factors, including the terms of any plan of reorganization ultimately confirmed, can affect the value of the company's various pre-petition liabilities, common stock and/or other equity securities. No assurance can be given as to what values, if any, will be ascribed in the bankruptcy proceedings to each of these constituencies. Accordingly, the company urges that the appropriate caution be exercised with respect to existing and future investments in any of these liabilities and/or securities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: US Airways
"" -- we believe we have constructed a replacement defined contribution plan that provides our pilots with a competitive pension that targets the equivalent of a $1 million pension package for a captain retiring after 30 years of service. ""
The "Benefit Calculator" at the RSA web site indicates that a city employee retiring with 30 years of service, at age 60, at earnings about the same as a Captain, would receive a bit over a million every ten years from their system.
There is a skunk in the woodpile here. Someone is going to have to flush it out.
http://www.rsa.state.al.us/WebCalc/Calc1.asp
The "Benefit Calculator" at the RSA web site indicates that a city employee retiring with 30 years of service, at age 60, at earnings about the same as a Captain, would receive a bit over a million every ten years from their system.
There is a skunk in the woodpile here. Someone is going to have to flush it out.
http://www.rsa.state.al.us/WebCalc/Calc1.asp
I have a quick question?
Since the pilots have decided that they will not accept the pension reduction, Dave has no choice but to get the BK judge to order it.
If USAir were to close it's doors tomorrow where would the companies pension liabilites fall on the list of creditors. Would a sale of the assets go to pay off 100% of the pension liabilities or would their be some pre determned amount?
I know at Pan Am they received around 10% but the laws have changed since then.
Since the pilots have decided that they will not accept the pension reduction, Dave has no choice but to get the BK judge to order it.
If USAir were to close it's doors tomorrow where would the companies pension liabilites fall on the list of creditors. Would a sale of the assets go to pay off 100% of the pension liabilities or would their be some pre determned amount?
I know at Pan Am they received around 10% but the laws have changed since then.
autofixer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,804
- 241
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 9:58:52 PM PineyBob wrote:
Here are several facts to consider.
1. Defined Benefit plans are out of sight cost wise for ALL companies airline or not!
2. Eliminating the unfunded obligation and the pension itself permanently enables US to significantly lower it cost structure indefinately, giving it a competitive advantage.
3. High profits enable STRONG negotiating positions for labor in the future.
4. Pilots earn enough income that if prudent, should have saved enough on their own to weather this storm.
5. Putting your financial future in the hands of any company given the track record over the years is foolish. Only you have your best interests at heart.
IMHO biting the bullet now in order to preserve US is the most prudent and least nauseating choice for all concerned. I know it does truly suck but I think the alternatives suck more.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Your statement is somewhat flawed. You say pilots make enough (?) that they should have saved enough for such a situation. Why? When I came to work at U (actually Piedmont) 16 years ago, I had a pension...right up to my leave 30 days ago. My point is, why pray tell, should have I been saving for this contengency? I spend money in my community and bought a house based on my income and other factors. It is not a zero sum game.
----------------
On 1/30/2003 9:58:52 PM PineyBob wrote:
Here are several facts to consider.
1. Defined Benefit plans are out of sight cost wise for ALL companies airline or not!
2. Eliminating the unfunded obligation and the pension itself permanently enables US to significantly lower it cost structure indefinately, giving it a competitive advantage.
3. High profits enable STRONG negotiating positions for labor in the future.
4. Pilots earn enough income that if prudent, should have saved enough on their own to weather this storm.
5. Putting your financial future in the hands of any company given the track record over the years is foolish. Only you have your best interests at heart.
IMHO biting the bullet now in order to preserve US is the most prudent and least nauseating choice for all concerned. I know it does truly suck but I think the alternatives suck more.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Your statement is somewhat flawed. You say pilots make enough (?) that they should have saved enough for such a situation. Why? When I came to work at U (actually Piedmont) 16 years ago, I had a pension...right up to my leave 30 days ago. My point is, why pray tell, should have I been saving for this contengency? I spend money in my community and bought a house based on my income and other factors. It is not a zero sum game.
Braveheart
Member
- Jan 29, 2003
- 60
- 0
Attention all CEO prospects: Learn how to use your CEO position, mark your name as the best union buster in the realworld?
CEO Class 101: Place fear of god in employees - see how far you can push them by using the fear of losing their jobs forever; threaten them with bankruptcy. As they collapse one-by-one, keep asking for more givebacks. They will continue to fall like dominoes until they have nothing. Results: A+ on mid-term
CEO Class 102: Now, negotiate with any airline or big corporation for an enormous salary increase, while those who bent too your demands are actually filing bankruptcies themselves. RESULT: A+ on mid-term
CEO Class 103: Not offered yet, stay tune for class update. Projected syllabus reveals this class will instruct the CEO on what actually occurs if this tactic does not work and the airlines folds. Does the CEO lose his job? How much negotiating power will you have with a company that actually wants to stay afloat, if you, as a CEO, do not have a job either and caused the company to fold?
Stay tune for live updates as this saga continues. Will ALPA say any pension amount is better than NO pension amount just as they did with their salary? We got em Dave!
CEO Class 101: Place fear of god in employees - see how far you can push them by using the fear of losing their jobs forever; threaten them with bankruptcy. As they collapse one-by-one, keep asking for more givebacks. They will continue to fall like dominoes until they have nothing. Results: A+ on mid-term
CEO Class 102: Now, negotiate with any airline or big corporation for an enormous salary increase, while those who bent too your demands are actually filing bankruptcies themselves. RESULT: A+ on mid-term
CEO Class 103: Not offered yet, stay tune for class update. Projected syllabus reveals this class will instruct the CEO on what actually occurs if this tactic does not work and the airlines folds. Does the CEO lose his job? How much negotiating power will you have with a company that actually wants to stay afloat, if you, as a CEO, do not have a job either and caused the company to fold?
Stay tune for live updates as this saga continues. Will ALPA say any pension amount is better than NO pension amount just as they did with their salary? We got em Dave!
Slam&Click
Member
- Aug 24, 2002
- 90
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 9:58:52 PM PineyBob wrote:
Here are several facts to consider.
4. Pilots earn enough income that if prudent, should have saved enough on their own to weather this storm.
5. Putting your financial future in the hands of any company given the track record over the years is foolish. Only you have your best interests at heart.
[/blockquote]
Dear Piney:
Pilots are ordinary people (with one exception), they have marriages, children, cars, mortgages, insurance payments, college tuition for older kids, food, utility, and general living expenses just like everyone else.
Are you actually stating that because they are pilots and SOME pilots may have attained an earning level (mind you, not maintained such an income over the long course of time, but reached and finally achieved a certain earning tier) that they should have had the foresight, and perhaps even the psychic ability to know ahead of time that their pension could just go "poof"? Thus, being "all knowing" pilots, surely they MUST have both the financial ability and know-how to have planned eons ahead for just such an event?!
Also, while they're saving all this *in case my pension fails* money, they won't have a penny extra to save for their first house, or a bigger car to hold the child that they've just decided they can afford...and hey, what about food, yep, that would be so terrific if they were allowed to eat, but shoot, they'd better save for the *psychically anticipated* implosion of their pension plan.
Maybe you haven't spent a lot of time around pilots (and from some of your derogatory remarks, that's probably true). Generally speaking, as a group they are not market/investment savvy. They put their pants on one leg at a time, go to work and fly planes because that's their passion. They return home and spend time with their families, put food on the table, clothes on the backs of their children and return to work again. There are always exceptions to this rule, but in my many years of experience living with a pilot (my dad) and spending inordinate amounts of time around pilots, it's mostly right on the button.
Now, I'm just employing your "facts", Bob: All those mid to upper middle-management types at Enron should have known to do the same thing, because they were at a certain earning level. Oh, wait a minute, that's right, those employees at Enron weren't privileged enough to have that foresight because they weren't pilots, right?
Were you employing logic when expressing points 4 & 5, or just being disparaging to the pilot group again?
----------------
On 1/30/2003 9:58:52 PM PineyBob wrote:
Here are several facts to consider.
4. Pilots earn enough income that if prudent, should have saved enough on their own to weather this storm.
5. Putting your financial future in the hands of any company given the track record over the years is foolish. Only you have your best interests at heart.
[/blockquote]
Dear Piney:
Pilots are ordinary people (with one exception), they have marriages, children, cars, mortgages, insurance payments, college tuition for older kids, food, utility, and general living expenses just like everyone else.
Are you actually stating that because they are pilots and SOME pilots may have attained an earning level (mind you, not maintained such an income over the long course of time, but reached and finally achieved a certain earning tier) that they should have had the foresight, and perhaps even the psychic ability to know ahead of time that their pension could just go "poof"? Thus, being "all knowing" pilots, surely they MUST have both the financial ability and know-how to have planned eons ahead for just such an event?!
Also, while they're saving all this *in case my pension fails* money, they won't have a penny extra to save for their first house, or a bigger car to hold the child that they've just decided they can afford...and hey, what about food, yep, that would be so terrific if they were allowed to eat, but shoot, they'd better save for the *psychically anticipated* implosion of their pension plan.
Maybe you haven't spent a lot of time around pilots (and from some of your derogatory remarks, that's probably true). Generally speaking, as a group they are not market/investment savvy. They put their pants on one leg at a time, go to work and fly planes because that's their passion. They return home and spend time with their families, put food on the table, clothes on the backs of their children and return to work again. There are always exceptions to this rule, but in my many years of experience living with a pilot (my dad) and spending inordinate amounts of time around pilots, it's mostly right on the button.
Now, I'm just employing your "facts", Bob: All those mid to upper middle-management types at Enron should have known to do the same thing, because they were at a certain earning level. Oh, wait a minute, that's right, those employees at Enron weren't privileged enough to have that foresight because they weren't pilots, right?
Were you employing logic when expressing points 4 & 5, or just being disparaging to the pilot group again?
Braveheart
Member
- Jan 29, 2003
- 60
- 0
PineyBobbie:
The price of freedom is risk, however memorize this:
---------------------------------------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
The price of freedom is risk, however memorize this:
---------------------------------------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
luv2fly
Veteran
- Aug 21, 2002
- 1,187
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/31/2003 12:07:24 AM Braveheart wrote:
PineyBobbie:
The price of freedom is risk, however memorize this:
---------------------------------------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
----------------
[/blockquote]
Excellent Bravehart. That sums it all up.
----------------
On 1/31/2003 12:07:24 AM Braveheart wrote:
PineyBobbie:
The price of freedom is risk, however memorize this:
---------------------------------------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
----------------
[/blockquote]
Excellent Bravehart. That sums it all up.
