What a bloody mess...At least I and others can remember when being in aviation was a postive experience...now its just a bad dream.
US Airways Files for Distress Termination of Pilot Defined Benefit Pension Plan and Approval of a Ne
- Thread starter ITRADE
- Start date
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Your statement is somewhat flawed. You say pilots make enough (?) that they should have saved enough for such a situation. Why?
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Because that is the prudent and smart thing to do -- whether you're a pilot or a burger flipper. Pilots are smart -- they should know this.
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When I came to work at U (actually Piedmont) 16 years ago, I had a pension...right up to my leave 30 days ago. My point is, why pray tell, should have I been saving for this contengency? I spend money in my community and bought a house based on my income and other factors. It is not a zero sum game.
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It's hindsight now but the reason is clear -- you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one basket (or just a few baskets). Especially one that someone else manages. Do you depend on social security to provide for 100% of your retirement?
It sucks that they're doing this but what choice do they have? They can't fund it -- the money isn't there. So negotiate an upside if things go well post ch 11. If you burn the company down you aren't going to get it back.
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Your statement is somewhat flawed. You say pilots make enough (?) that they should have saved enough for such a situation. Why?
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Because that is the prudent and smart thing to do -- whether you're a pilot or a burger flipper. Pilots are smart -- they should know this.
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When I came to work at U (actually Piedmont) 16 years ago, I had a pension...right up to my leave 30 days ago. My point is, why pray tell, should have I been saving for this contengency? I spend money in my community and bought a house based on my income and other factors. It is not a zero sum game.
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It's hindsight now but the reason is clear -- you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one basket (or just a few baskets). Especially one that someone else manages. Do you depend on social security to provide for 100% of your retirement?
It sucks that they're doing this but what choice do they have? They can't fund it -- the money isn't there. So negotiate an upside if things go well post ch 11. If you burn the company down you aren't going to get it back.
Let's not forget about the AFA and IAM pensions.........I wonder what the gang in CCY has in mind for those......I have been on the 401k plan since the early 90's and can't help but think that if the pilot's pension is terminated and a new defined contribution plan created, these two will be in the "crosshairs" next.
so Dave is going to give ALPA virtually all of the ATSB secured loan money ( 850 Mill)...and the rest of the employees are supposed to cry for ALPA? boohoo
PineyBob:
You overlook the one salient point-my pension was earned over the last 17 years. One million dollars has been stolen from me and my family. A pilot is an indentured servant to the seniority list he/she finds her/him self on. The pilots at USAirways work for the Enron of the airline industry. If Wolf and his minions had not raped this company with their ill-fated get rich quick schemes and failed stock buy backs a la $2 billion-we may be in a different state of affairs now. To answer your next question-am I prepared to bring the house of cards down over this pension theft-yes-I have been preparing for this day since September 2001-when I listened to Gangwal's third quarter conference call with those fawning airline analysts. My house was sold long ago-I relocated to my retirement home-my wife retrurned to employment to attain health benefits after the Chap. 7 filing, and my kids are out of school. I'll miss never flying again terribly.I voted against the restructuring plan in August for the simple reason that I wanted everything out in the open back then. Puppet-Siegal has mismanaged this Chap. 11-to the point where the pain is hard to bear. I was being shot at learning the flying trade when he was in grade school.If someone stole a million dollars from you-all in the light of day-would you idly stand by? My retirement years will now be spent in a different manner than I had planned-but I am prepared to start those years in the next few months-as this company liquidates.
You overlook the one salient point-my pension was earned over the last 17 years. One million dollars has been stolen from me and my family. A pilot is an indentured servant to the seniority list he/she finds her/him self on. The pilots at USAirways work for the Enron of the airline industry. If Wolf and his minions had not raped this company with their ill-fated get rich quick schemes and failed stock buy backs a la $2 billion-we may be in a different state of affairs now. To answer your next question-am I prepared to bring the house of cards down over this pension theft-yes-I have been preparing for this day since September 2001-when I listened to Gangwal's third quarter conference call with those fawning airline analysts. My house was sold long ago-I relocated to my retirement home-my wife retrurned to employment to attain health benefits after the Chap. 7 filing, and my kids are out of school. I'll miss never flying again terribly.I voted against the restructuring plan in August for the simple reason that I wanted everything out in the open back then. Puppet-Siegal has mismanaged this Chap. 11-to the point where the pain is hard to bear. I was being shot at learning the flying trade when he was in grade school.If someone stole a million dollars from you-all in the light of day-would you idly stand by? My retirement years will now be spent in a different manner than I had planned-but I am prepared to start those years in the next few months-as this company liquidates.
PSA1979
Senior
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On 1/31/2003 8:43:56 AM ClueByFour wrote:
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On 1/31/2003 7:37:50 AM Daveflier wrote:
PineyBob:
You overlook the one salient point-my pension was earned over the last 17 years. One million dollars has been stolen from me and my family. A pilot is an indentured servant to the seniority list he/she finds her/him self on.
Since when does and Indentured servant make in the 6 figures?
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On 1/31/2003 8:43:56 AM ClueByFour wrote:
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On 1/31/2003 7:37:50 AM Daveflier wrote:
PineyBob:
You overlook the one salient point-my pension was earned over the last 17 years. One million dollars has been stolen from me and my family. A pilot is an indentured servant to the seniority list he/she finds her/him self on.
Since when does and Indentured servant make in the 6 figures?
ClueByFour
Veteran
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On 1/31/2003 7:37:50 AM Daveflier wrote:
PineyBob:
You overlook the one salient point-my pension was earned over the last 17 years. One million dollars has been stolen from me and my family. A pilot is an indentured servant to the seniority list he/she finds her/him self on.
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"Indentured servant?" Get real.
You wanted a union game, you got a union game. Blame ALPA for being an "indentured servant," not the employer. That particular game is of the union's making, not the (or any) company's.
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On 1/31/2003 7:37:50 AM Daveflier wrote:
PineyBob:
You overlook the one salient point-my pension was earned over the last 17 years. One million dollars has been stolen from me and my family. A pilot is an indentured servant to the seniority list he/she finds her/him self on.
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"Indentured servant?" Get real.
You wanted a union game, you got a union game. Blame ALPA for being an "indentured servant," not the employer. That particular game is of the union's making, not the (or any) company's.
$100k in most of the cities that airlines base out of is dog poop. In NY, a 100k is chump change for most professional people.
autofixer
Veteran
I wish people could get off the six figure hangup. Many people make six figures now days: carpenters, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. If you are not making six figures, get off your arse and get into a profession or trade where you can! It is not all that hard, but it requires work...more than 40 hours per week.
PSA1979
Senior
On 1/31/2003 10:49:24 AM autofixer wrote:
I wish people could get off the six figure hangup. Many people make six figures now days: carpenters, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. If you are not making six figures, get off your arse and get into a profession or trade where you can! It is not all that hard, but it requires work...more than 40 hours per week.
Autofixer, if all you got out my post is the six figures, then I think you need to get off the six figure hang up! I meant how can you be an Indentured Servant when you make so much money. I am a f/a and I must be an Indentured Servant also, why are you not coming to my aid when I don't even make a third of what all the other Indentured Servants make. I am tied to the seniority system, spent over 12 years on reserve, and can't wait after 24 years to actually be senior (maybe int the year 2009)
I guess I must be a Slave.
I wish people could get off the six figure hangup. Many people make six figures now days: carpenters, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. If you are not making six figures, get off your arse and get into a profession or trade where you can! It is not all that hard, but it requires work...more than 40 hours per week.
Autofixer, if all you got out my post is the six figures, then I think you need to get off the six figure hang up! I meant how can you be an Indentured Servant when you make so much money. I am a f/a and I must be an Indentured Servant also, why are you not coming to my aid when I don't even make a third of what all the other Indentured Servants make. I am tied to the seniority system, spent over 12 years on reserve, and can't wait after 24 years to actually be senior (maybe int the year 2009)
I guess I must be a Slave.
PITbull
Veteran
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On 1/30/2003 11
49 PM Slam&Click wrote:
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On 1/30/2003 9:58:52 PM PineyBob wrote:
Here are several facts to consider.
4. Pilots earn enough income that if prudent, should have saved enough on their own to weather this storm.
5. Putting your financial future in the hands of any company given the track record over the years is foolish. Only you have your best interests at heart.
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Dear Piney:
Pilots are ordinary people (with one exception), they have marriages, children, cars, mortgages, insurance payments, college tuition for older kids, food, utility, and general living expenses just like everyone else.
Are you actually stating that because they are pilots and SOME pilots may have attained an earning level (mind you, not maintained such an income over the long course of time, but reached and finally achieved a certain earning tier) that they should have had the foresight, and perhaps even the psychic ability to know ahead of time that their pension could just go "poof"? Thus, being "all knowing" pilots, surely they MUST have both the financial ability and know-how to have planned eons ahead for just such an event?!
Also, while they're saving all this *in case my pension fails* money, they won't have a penny extra to save for their first house, or a bigger car to hold the child that they've just decided they can afford...and hey, what about food, yep, that would be so terrific if they were allowed to eat, but shoot, they'd better save for the *psychically anticipated* implosion of their pension plan.
Maybe you haven't spent a lot of time around pilots (and from some of your derogatory remarks, that's probably true). Generally speaking, as a group they are not market/investment savvy. They put their pants on one leg at a time, go to work and fly planes because that's their passion. They return home and spend time with their families, put food on the table, clothes on the backs of their children and return to work again. There are always exceptions to this rule, but in my many years of experience living with a pilot (my dad) and spending inordinate amounts of time around pilots, it's mostly right on the button.
Now, I'm just employing your "facts", Bob: All those mid to upper middle-management types at Enron should have known to do the same thing, because they were at a certain earning level. Oh, wait a minute, that's right, those employees at Enron weren't privileged enough to have that foresight because they weren't pilots, right?
Were you employing logic when expressing points 4 & 5, or just being disparaging to the pilot group again?
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I agree with your contention. I am sure many pilots did take their money and invest in the Dow, and nasdeq only to lose substantially where the market sits at present. So, it would not have mattered if they had the fortitude and saw that there could be a possibility of losing a pension, they would have taken the money and put it in the market and ended up with a net gain of "0" ability to retire.
None of us can say we saw this coming. If that were the case we would not have bought homes if we did not have all the CASH to pay for them up front, or cars.
I just got the lesson of a life time this summer in negotiations learning about defined pensions, contributions, PBGC and such.
Your point taken.
I need to pose this if anyone knows, what happens to the monies already contributed to the Pilot's pension fund?
Does that money get converted over to the PBGC? I'm sure it must be substantial.
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On 1/30/2003 11
49 PM Slam&Click wrote: [blockquote]
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On 1/30/2003 9:58:52 PM PineyBob wrote:
Here are several facts to consider.
4. Pilots earn enough income that if prudent, should have saved enough on their own to weather this storm.
5. Putting your financial future in the hands of any company given the track record over the years is foolish. Only you have your best interests at heart.
[/blockquote]
Dear Piney:
Pilots are ordinary people (with one exception), they have marriages, children, cars, mortgages, insurance payments, college tuition for older kids, food, utility, and general living expenses just like everyone else.
Are you actually stating that because they are pilots and SOME pilots may have attained an earning level (mind you, not maintained such an income over the long course of time, but reached and finally achieved a certain earning tier) that they should have had the foresight, and perhaps even the psychic ability to know ahead of time that their pension could just go "poof"? Thus, being "all knowing" pilots, surely they MUST have both the financial ability and know-how to have planned eons ahead for just such an event?!
Also, while they're saving all this *in case my pension fails* money, they won't have a penny extra to save for their first house, or a bigger car to hold the child that they've just decided they can afford...and hey, what about food, yep, that would be so terrific if they were allowed to eat, but shoot, they'd better save for the *psychically anticipated* implosion of their pension plan.
Maybe you haven't spent a lot of time around pilots (and from some of your derogatory remarks, that's probably true). Generally speaking, as a group they are not market/investment savvy. They put their pants on one leg at a time, go to work and fly planes because that's their passion. They return home and spend time with their families, put food on the table, clothes on the backs of their children and return to work again. There are always exceptions to this rule, but in my many years of experience living with a pilot (my dad) and spending inordinate amounts of time around pilots, it's mostly right on the button.
Now, I'm just employing your "facts", Bob: All those mid to upper middle-management types at Enron should have known to do the same thing, because they were at a certain earning level. Oh, wait a minute, that's right, those employees at Enron weren't privileged enough to have that foresight because they weren't pilots, right?
Were you employing logic when expressing points 4 & 5, or just being disparaging to the pilot group again?
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[/blockquote]
I agree with your contention. I am sure many pilots did take their money and invest in the Dow, and nasdeq only to lose substantially where the market sits at present. So, it would not have mattered if they had the fortitude and saw that there could be a possibility of losing a pension, they would have taken the money and put it in the market and ended up with a net gain of "0" ability to retire.
None of us can say we saw this coming. If that were the case we would not have bought homes if we did not have all the CASH to pay for them up front, or cars.
I just got the lesson of a life time this summer in negotiations learning about defined pensions, contributions, PBGC and such.
Your point taken.
I need to pose this if anyone knows, what happens to the monies already contributed to the Pilot's pension fund?
Does that money get converted over to the PBGC? I'm sure it must be substantial.
ClueByFour
Veteran
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On 1/31/2003 10:56:13 AM Winglet wrote:
$100k in most of the cities that airlines base out of is dog poop. In NY, a 100k is chump change for most professional people.
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100k in PIT and CLT is living large, marginally less so in PHL. DCA and BOS are not nearly as high a standard of living at 100k, but one can make it. And, since pilots can commute on the almighty jumpseat, why is that even an issue?
Of course, let's forget U. 100k will take you a long way in MEM, CVG, SLC, DFW, STL, and so on.
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On 1/31/2003 10:56:13 AM Winglet wrote:
$100k in most of the cities that airlines base out of is dog poop. In NY, a 100k is chump change for most professional people.
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[/blockquote]
100k in PIT and CLT is living large, marginally less so in PHL. DCA and BOS are not nearly as high a standard of living at 100k, but one can make it. And, since pilots can commute on the almighty jumpseat, why is that even an issue?
Of course, let's forget U. 100k will take you a long way in MEM, CVG, SLC, DFW, STL, and so on.
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