Vortex Ring Advise?

[dammyneckhurts]

Been pretty slow on here lately! I was just following a thread posted by an instructor on another site and it seemed like a good one. I was wondering if any of the experienced hands are interested in sharing their wisdom on the subject. Maybe some tips for those that have never experienced it, or for those that wernt quite sure what happened and are still pullin the cushin out of their arse...Thoughts anyone?

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Rapid, agressive laterial cyclic with an increase or steady state of power - then life will return to normal!

 

[VERTICAL X]

Hey VERTICAL REF, no wonder you were always complaining about sore knees. I just thought thats why your paycheck was always bigger than mine. Actually you don't have to do anything too drastic to get yourself out of this state. "Rapid, agressive lateral cyclic" VR VR VR how many times do i have to tell you, reduce power and displace the disc. Nothing has to be done fast. The biggest thing to be aware of when dealing with vortex ring state is what the onset feels like. If you know it's coming it's over before it really starts. By chance you do get in to it, the best advise i have is reduce power and displace the disc. Depending on the situation i will use lateral or forward cyclic inputs, they both work very well.

I was once told "If you don't get into vortex ring once in a while, the drills aint coming in fast enough"....... What a load of crap.



VX

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Don't know about you VX but lowering the pole going into a shotpoint or the landing has never been an option in my case. Once the drill or the log is below the tree line, there is no other option.

I have never settled with power 300 or 400 feet agl - have you? I have already screwed up and am comming down too fast therefore must hold or increase collective to prevent any further excitement! Getting the aircraft to roll around the longitudinal axis is rapid and instantly rewarded. Clean air arcoss the disc and you are back in buisness.

To get a 58.5 foot aircraft to "pitch" forward seems to take to long and moving forward is not usually an option. Especially when you have to get a couple of pratts and their luggage moving in an upward direction. Laterial cyclic and up collective works for me! I always go left cause thats where I can see, where I'm going and am probably going to end up anyway!

That being said I am always eager to learn from the wise ones like yourself - ah when I can snatch the pebble from your hand master, then it is time for me to go! 😉

Sincerely,

Grasshopper. 😀

Will change "rapid and aggressive" to "positive and authoritative" :huh: Did'nt have my thesaurus with me at the time.

Anxiously awating your reply...

 

[VERTICAL X]

You never fail to amaze me VR. I could tell you the sky is brown and you could still find a way to BS your way around. Good on ya.

My point being. You need two highs and a low to get into the dreaded Vortex Ring.
A high rate of descent
A high power setting
And a low forward airspeed

ie pulling more power=an even higher rate of descent

As for getting out of it on final with a drill, to reduce power for a split second and displace a little air is definately the way i go about it. You don't have to bottom the collective, you need only reduce power slightly and momentarily.

Next tour i'll give your method a try buddy. Ill let you know how she goes. If it doesn't work you'll be getting a bent compressor leg in the mail, and i'll get a kick in the nuts from the mechanic. :wacko: Here's to it working!


VX

 

[dammyneckhurts]

Good stuff gentlemen! I would like to add that there is a way to get into V.R. without any rate of decent at all, ie no reduction in altitude. anyone been there?

 

[Blackmac]

Vertical X, used your method for years. either slinging or with a full load, (short sling) once below the tree line going into a whole. It is very hard to convince another driver to slightly lower the collective and wait till you come into groung effect before applying collective positively.

It is a method learned from using underpowered machines, much like learning to do zero airspeed touchdown landings with minimum power input.

Good topic.

Cheers Don

 

[VERTICAL REF]

X man,

I have only ever experienced "settling" on the end of a LL, so that is to which reference I speak. And yes you are most correct with the two maximums and one minimum.
Have you ever noticed that you never settle on a windy day or only on the "subtle" side of the mountain?
Try it, hold power or even increase power, but move the stick a significant distance to the left ( you can even throw in some right pedal just for fun! ) The old girl will start whopping away again.
Fear Factor disclaimer - the longer the line and the shorter the trees, the better your fudge factor till you get it down pat! No worries, drills are quite resilient, and they have even been known to bounce! 😉

As for the "sending me the legs stuff" don't bother, I have a garage full of them!
Still working on perfecting the rubber/graphite kinimatics model. I am on a first name basis with all the mechanic's - not by my choice! B)


Sore Neck Bones,
Lots of times LTE and the resultant "floundering" can be mistaken for Vring. The initial phases of both are very similiar. Thats why an input of right pedal gets the airflow going thru the tail feathers again! :huh:

 

[skullcap]

V X;

From many a manual; You need 300-1500(transport says 500-1500, military says 300 1500 and believe that number is more accurate) fpm rate of descent, low airspeed <20, and POWER applied, have been in vortex ring many a time with no sling load and little power, is all a ratio to how high the rate of descent is. In fact have had arguments with pilots who believe that it is easier to encounter VR state with unloaded aircraft, my suggestion to them is to watch the vsi sometime while on final with an empty line, not abnormal to sell 700-1000 fpm rate of desc, add a little power and yippie.

So to exit the situation one must break the 3 sided chain by either reducing the power to auto(doubtful but can be done if room permits), getting airspeed(usually the best method-cyclic in direction of descent) or by getting rid of rate of descent(usually impossible unless you have room). Lot of seismic drivers over the prairies will just hold power and wait, she stops in about a 10 foot hover, I don't have the balls to try am sorry.


Dammy:

Biggest catcher of pilots is working the upflow side of hill, where there is an equivalent rate of descent in a hover. 5 mph of wind vertical up mountain is the same as 440 fpm rate of descent, all it takes is to pull into hover with slight descent and no forward airspeed and bingo, good thing is that you are able to get out of VR more easily in uplow so can regroup and try again. Many days I have rather worked the downflow side of hill due to this.


My 4 cents

sc

 

[dammyneckhurts]

Skully,

That was the exact senario I was digging for. Upflow can be a #### if it too strong. My nastiest experience regarding vortex ring was in big upflow. Hovering with the load just over the edge of the trees...machine feels like it want to imitate a rock.

You get 4 cents? I am still workin on 2....I better put in for a raise

Question to all you speedy guys on the line....Senario: light and variable winds, your in the groove....floating in on low power, pulling collective just as the load is approaching the opening. What tools/tricks do you have to know that the bottom is not going to fall out when you pull? I seem to have developed one, just wondering if other guys do anything similar...

DMNH

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Personally I'll take the upflow side over the downflow side of the mountain any day of the week. Just have to know where the demarcation line is and have a LL the according length! You'll never overtorque on the up flow side... 😉

 

[skullcap]

VR

Do you mean the boundary layer or demarcation line, halfway down the mountain you're still in upflow and demarcation line is back at the top. Remember the boundary layer of air can be up to 1500 feet thick hope you got a lotta line.

Not all days are ok to be on the back side.

DMNY;

Don't like floating in with a load, can't tell wind direction when the disc is unloaded, if your flying a medium it just won't work. Learn to be fast elsewhere, on final with a load is not great unless you can fly the load to the ground without verticalling down. And my 4 cents is a play, most folks have 5 senses(sp), I have lost my sense of taste when started posting here ha!


sc

 

[VERTICAL REF]

If your working a ridge line stay above the DML and life is good. Anywhere on the upflow side makes me happy - top, bottom or middle! Up flow is up flow, the stronger the wind and the closer you are tucked in, the greater the benefits!
I would rather be in upflow and downwind than be into wind in downflow...personal preference I guess!

 

[VERTICAL X]

skully

Seismic drivers in the prairies best get rid of the habit of holding power till they come to a 10 foot hover. That is freekin nuts. Playing with fire will catch up to you.
Not only are you going to scare the crap out of yourself in the flat lands but what happens when you get into vortex above the trees.

Learn the onset of vortex ring, get out before you really get in too deep.

VX

Nothing personal skully, sounds like you are way too smart to pull something like that.

 

[Rotorhead]

I would rather be in upflow and downwind than be into wind in downflow...personal preference I guess!

Well that only make sense to those who've been there. I've had some of my best days manipulating the upflowing winds to do wonderful things. Now avoiding the downflowing air is the smartest thing to tell anyone that hasn't seen 2000 fpm down while pulling 100%. Luckily, I've only seen this while sitting next to my Instructor in Penticton. He did have quite a way of teaching that makes you never forget.

RH