Vote no for our profession

[Karnak]

What will happen is you can go back and get for more. If you vote YES you are voting to extend the concessions that were forced upon you in Bankruputcy seven long years ago. UPS, FED EX and WN mechanics do the same job you do but they get anywhere from $45/hr to $50/hr. Why should you guys settle for that much less? At AA we are going for just shy of $44/hr. That still puts us behind those guys buts its still an improvement over what we have now. If you guys settle for whats on the table you will have sold yourselves short. Adjusted for inflation you will be no better off than after the first round of Bankrupcty imposed cuts. Look at UALs revenue from 2002, compare it to today, my guess its gone up a lot, I know AA has gone up by $5 billion. Now look at the number of employees they have, my guess is its gone down a lot, at AA its around 40,000. So they have more money coming in with fewer people getting paid, they have the money, fuel doesnt take all of it. Everybody else who is still in the game except labor has seen their income increase dramatically from the airports, to vendors, to the banks and yes the oil company's labor should not stand on the sidelines and wait till theirs something left over to get what we deserve, we have to take it, remember if we dont show up to work the planes dont go out and if they dont go out then nobody gets anything. Layoffs? are you serious? The airlines have driven so many mechanics out of the industry that even the MROs are having trouble getting people. Here in the Northeast at AA around 90% of our recalls rejected the offer to come back, out of nearly 400 around 20 came back, the rest found better jobs. I hear that around 60% are saying no to UAL, that rate will increase as they get further down the list to more Junior guys. How long you are in mediation depends on how much pressure you put on the company. Another "Summer of Hell" like you did in 2000 would make it short, if you do'nt put any pressure on them like us you may end up a year or so but lets not forget that the recent UPS contract became amendable in 2006 and they just recently settled for $50/hr. Would that be worth waiting for? The fact is we have them in a better position now than we ever have, despite the economy, despite the fuel, despite our age, now is the time to push to get the wage restored.

Bob, I am not arguing this is a perfect agreement it is not.This is just a temp agreement if approved we will be negotiating for a combined agreement.
Do you think its better to start at square one for a undetermined amount of
time in mediation ? The Summer of Hell you mentioned was primarily a pilot job
action they have a hell of a lot of unity.That does not exist in the mechs ranks.
For example if the Teamsters called a strike I would bet 75-90% of the people would cross.Arguing about what other make is senseless because they all make
different amounts for different reasons.AA is not like UA is not like UPS.
The Teamsters so far got double time back,8 bucks an hour raise.Fixed the field
service language so the company pays like they are supposed to block to block.
Thats only for the time being until we get the amalgamation agreement.Insurance and the pension issue will be addressed at that time.
If this was a 3-5 year agreement I would vote no but its a stepping stone or
a place holder while they work out the other issues.

People who vote no IMO are rejecting the 27k worth of money in our pocket
we could have now for the possibility of a few years of no raises on the old contract.
I think we should see how the amalgamation agreement goes and re assess our
position. I hope no one gets mad at me for being careful but I am honestly thinking of all the guys and I want the best for them.K

 

[xUT]

Bob, I am not arguing this is a perfect agreement it is not.This is just a temp agreement if approved we will be negotiating for a combined agreement.
Do you think its better to start at square one for a undetermined amount of
time in mediation ? The Summer of Hell you mentioned was primarily a pilot job
action they have a hell of a lot of unity.That does not exist in the mechs ranks.
For example if the Teamsters called a strike I would bet 75-90% of the people would cross.Arguing about what other make is senseless because they all make
different amounts for different reasons.AA is not like UA is not like UPS.
The Teamsters so far got double time back,8 bucks an hour raise.Fixed the field
service language so the company pays like they are supposed to block to block.
Thats only for the time being until we get the amalgamation agreement.Insurance and the pension issue will be addressed at that time.
If this was a 3-5 year agreement I would vote no but its a stepping stone or
a place holder while they work out the other issues.

People who vote no IMO are rejecting the 27k worth of money in our pocket
we could have now for the possibility of a few years of no raises on the old contract.
I think we should see how the amalgamation agreement goes and re assess our
position. I hope no one gets mad at me for being careful but I am honestly thinking of all the guys and I want the best for them.K

I never thought Paul Molenburg (DDD3) would post here.

 

[Karnak]

I never thought Paul Molenburg (DDD3) would post here.

No I am not Paul.

 

[xUT]

No I am not Paul.

Sorry, completely fooled me. Sounded so much like that ibt lackey selling snake oil again.
Should I go through the list or play Karnak?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, I am not arguing this is a perfect agreement it is not.This is just a temp agreement if approved we will be negotiating for a combined agreement.
Do you think its better to start at square one for a undetermined amount of
time in mediation ? The Summer of Hell you mentioned was primarily a pilot job
action they have a hell of a lot of unity.That does not exist in the mechs ranks.
For example if the Teamsters called a strike I would bet 75-90% of the people would cross.Arguing about what other make is senseless because they all make
different amounts for different reasons.AA is not like UA is not like UPS.
The Teamsters so far got double time back,8 bucks an hour raise.Fixed the field
service language so the company pays like they are supposed to block to block.
Thats only for the time being until we get the amalgamation agreement.Insurance and the pension issue will be addressed at that time.
If this was a 3-5 year agreement I would vote no but its a stepping stone or
a place holder while they work out the other issues.

People who vote no IMO are rejecting the 27k worth of money in our pocket
we could have now for the possibility of a few years of no raises on the old contract.
I think we should see how the amalgamation agreement goes and re assess our
position. I hope no one gets mad at me for being careful but I am honestly thinking of all the guys and I want the best for them.K

Nobody said hold out for perfect by why settle for a deal that leaves you more than $10/hr from the top? While there are a few pearls stuck in this turd it still isnt worth eating all that s4!+ to get them.

What makes you think that when you negotiate to combine the deals that it will be any better? Why would you agree to leave language on big ticket items like the pension and Medical open? Thats nuts! My guess is that you all get the DB pension but you lose your current Medical and get theirs because legislation was passed (unfortunately with our help) that allows the airlines to legally underfund pensions even more. So you will end up paying around $3k for the medical you have now but you will be promised a DB plan (like we have at AA, but the company puts in less than $1200 a year in my pension, UAL would save a ton of money in the near term by not making the 5% DC), they will come back for the pension in 10 years or so when it will be impossible for them to make the payments and meet the obligations of the plan, or whenever the next crisis hits the industry or the markets.

Even Capt Borne admits that this contract will be in place for at least 18 more months on his You tube Video. When did your contract become amendable? 2 years plus at least 18 months is at least 3 years isnt it?

Our (mechanics) window of opportunity may only be open for a short time. I could see the airlines getting FAR 66 pulled off the shelf to deal with the mechanic shortage thats starting to hit the industry big time. AA already lowered their experience requirement to zero for line maintenance, when I was hired you had to have five years of heavy turbine transport experience. If you settle for this now it could easily be three to five years before the next agreement is settled because then you really would be starting at square one, if you reject this you skim through all the small articles and then focus on the ones that were the cause for rejection, in your case the money. It should not take very long, we had a lot more to go through than you did and we are back to the money.

 

[gtd]

Bob, I am not arguing this is a perfect agreement it is not.This is just a temp agreement if approved we will be negotiating for a combined agreement.
Do you think its better to start at square one for a undetermined amount of
time in mediation ? The Summer of Hell you mentioned was primarily a pilot job
action they have a hell of a lot of unity.That does not exist in the mechs ranks.
For example if the Teamsters called a strike I would bet 75-90% of the people would cross.Arguing about what other make is senseless because they all make
different amounts for different reasons.AA is not like UA is not like UPS.
The Teamsters so far got double time back,8 bucks an hour raise.Fixed the field
service language so the company pays like they are supposed to block to block.
Thats only for the time being until we get the amalgamation agreement.Insurance and the pension issue will be addressed at that time.
If this was a 3-5 year agreement I would vote no but its a stepping stone or
a place holder while they work out the other issues.

People who vote no IMO are rejecting the 27k worth of money in our pocket
we could have now for the possibility of a few years of no raises on the old contract.
I think we should see how the amalgamation agreement goes and re assess our
position. I hope no one gets mad at me for being careful but I am honestly thinking of all the guys and I want the best for them.K

Holy crap! You really bought the ibt bs. Do you even go to meetings or tried to be involved. Did you research all the claims the ibt is making on this concessionary TA?
$27000.00? Ask them to show you the math. They won't. Did they include the payout of medical premiums of possibly over $500 a month? No they didn't. And you mention the pension and health that will be "addressed?" Holy crap! They will again appoint their chosen ones, bribe them with full time positions with the ibt the declare the committees have spoken and we will be dumped into the failing ibt pension plan and into their crappy health and welfare plan.
Getting back double time is a small part of what they should of brought back. They should of started with a snap back to EVERYTHING we gave up in bankruptcy. Where do you get 8 bucks an hour? That's wishful thinking. Field service language? One and three quarter block to block which means there will be no field service or very little. After the amalgamation we will virtually have mechanics at all the hubs. By the way, summer of hell, I was walked out for a "job action." So obviously you were living in a cave at that time. Many were fired or walked out in those days.

Let me ask you this, in the last three years what have the ibt done for us? What promises were fulfilled? The organizing division came in sold us a bill of goods and disappeared. Notice how hard the ibt is selling this garbage of a TA? Again if this thing passes they will disappear until they want something else from us. Don't be bamboozled again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Don't believe anything the ibt is selling without proof. Sorry to pound you like this but I did do my home work and I am very frustrated when individuals buy this load of crap from the ibt. They are counting on it. Knowledge is Power.
Check out The-UALMechanics.com and sign an AMFA Card.

 

[Bob Owens]

How much money will getting back double time actually get him? I can count on my hands how many times I got Doubletime and all of them were on field trips. They would send us home after four and have early call in for the next four. Doubletime is a deterrant not an income producer.

Another "tit on a bull" in this package is the job protection language, job protection language is only important if the company is looking to shrink the workforce which I dont think is the case, in fact there's a mechanic shortage. UAL says that in 2007 outsourced maint services made up 13% of its total operating costs, thats HUGE!!! 13% of total operating costs and thats only 41% of their maintenance costs. Thats a big incentive to bring work back in house where you have better quality and cost control.

 

[whoop whoop]

Nobody said hold out for perfect by why settle for a deal that leaves you more than $10/hr from the top? While there are a few pearls stuck in this turd it still isnt worth eating all that s4!+ to get them.

What makes you think that when you negotiate to combine the deals that it will be any better? Why would you agree to leave language on big ticket items like the pension and Medical open? Thats nuts! My guess is that you all get the DB pension but you lose your current Medical and get theirs because legislation was passed (unfortunately with our help) that allows the airlines to legally underfund pensions even more. So you will end up paying around $3k for the medical you have now but you will be promised a DB plan (like we have at AA, but the company puts in less than $1200 a year in my pension, UAL would save a ton of money in the near term by not making the 5% DC), they will come back for the pension in 10 years or so when it will be impossible for them to make the payments and meet the obligations of the plan, or whenever the next crisis hits the industry or the markets.

Even Capt Borne admits that this contract will be in place for at least 18 more months on his You tube Video. When did your contract become amendable? 2 years plus at least 18 months is at least 3 years isnt it?

Our (mechanics) window of opportunity may only be open for a short time. I could see the airlines getting FAR 66 pulled off the shelf to deal with the mechanic shortage thats starting to hit the industry big time. AA already lowered their experience requirement to zero for line maintenance, when I was hired you had to have five years of heavy turbine transport experience. If you settle for this now it could easily be three to five years before the next agreement is settled because then you really would be starting at square one, if you reject this you skim through all the small articles and then focus on the ones that were the cause for rejection, in your case the money. It should not take very long, we had a lot more to go through than you did and we are back to the money.

Bob, there is no use in trying to reason with this person. He is obviously an ibt rep begging for the UAL mechanics to accept this turd.

 

[gtd]

Bob, there is no use in trying to reason with this person. He is obviously an ibt rep begging for the UAL mechanics to accept this turd.

There is one thing we must all agree on, this is not only about UAL Mechanics or AA Mechanics, this is about the whole industry. We must all work together despite the ongoing battles between unions. If they can't do it then we must take the bull by the horns on our own. The question is how do you educate those who refuse to be educated? How do you get the message to them when they refuse to listen? It's a very frustrating state we are in. GT

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, there is no use in trying to reason with this person. He is obviously an ibt rep begging for the UAL mechanics to accept this turd.

The main prupose of debate is not to convince your opponent that he is wrong but to convince anyone who may be listening in that he is. His points, which no doubt are being spread by the IBT, need to be answered, then the members can make a more informed decision. Its sad when the union side and the company side are so similar, the mechanics need to remember that neither of those parties have to work under the terms they advocate for you and probably wouldnt. Ask them what they make, or better yet go here and look it up;

http://www.union-reports.dol.gov/

IBT National HDQ 2010 Report David Bourne $150,000
IBT Local 1224 2010 Report David Bourne $48,000

Are there two David Bourne's? If not $198k aint bad, thats close to triple what he thinks you should accept.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

There is one thing we must all agree on, this is not only about UAL Mechanics or AA Mechanics, this is about the whole industry. We must all work together despite the ongoing battles between unions. If they can't do it then we must take the bull by the horns on our own. The question is how do you educate those who refuse to be educated? How do you get the message to them when they refuse to listen? It's a very frustrating state we are in. GT

Please post if the ibt inserts colored flyers into ballots urging people to vote yes. The twu did this in our POS t/a that was brought back by people with no will to fight for the membership. Good luck to you all at UAL. You are right that your t/a and our future t/as are going to affect not only us but our entire craft and profession. By voting yes you not only sell your soul for 30 pieces of silver but you condemn the future of our craft. Voting no means what for you? You have to fight and wait a little longer? At AA we have been with a concessionary contract going onto NINE years now. Three of these years are FREE for the company because our union did NOT get snapback clause when they swallowed the package. We all entered this field for a reason... don't sell yourself short or your craft short now. FIGHT!

 

[gtd]

Please post if the ibt inserts colored flyers into ballots urging people to vote yes. The twu did this in our POS t/a that was brought back by people with no will to fight for the membership. Good luck to you all at UAL. You are right that your t/a and our future t/as are going to affect not only us but our entire craft and profession. By voting yes you not only sell your soul for 30 pieces of silver but you condemn the future of our craft. Voting no means what for you? You have to fight and wait a little longer? At AA we have been with a concessionary contract going onto NINE years now. Three of these years are FREE for the company because our union did NOT get snapback clause when they swallowed the package. We all entered this field for a reason... don't sell yourself short or your craft short now. FIGHT!

They did include flyers in the envelope along with the ballots telling us why this TA should be approved. They are spending a lot of money trying to sale this horrific TA. If only they worked this hard to negotiate something better.

 

[Bob Owens]

They did include flyers in the envelope along with the ballots telling us why this TA should be approved. They are spending a lot of money trying to sale this horrific TA. If only they worked this hard to negotiate something better.

I thought the ballots didnt go out till June 5, I'm guessing thats the day of the count?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

They did include flyers in the envelope along with the ballots telling us why this TA should be approved. They are spending a lot of money trying to sale this horrific TA. If only they worked this hard to negotiate something better.

That would require the unaccountable being held accountable.