Washington Dulles United And Ba

[Ukridge]

Although not pertaining directly to United, it certainly does affect one of the major hubs. That of course is the rather concerning news that is occuring with BA and Dulles. This may be receiving little or no notice in the U.S. press but I can assure you that it is front page in England and in Europe. This is a not (and should not be) a forum for discussions of specific security areas, but as part of that amorphous "flying public" I would rather the authorities err on the side of caution. Already the press corps has elements that are mocking the authorities for overreacting. All of us however, on this forum, whether customer, observer, or employee wish for the same goal - safe transportation.
If anything good can come from this though I would like to opine that perhaps the governments on both sides of the seas will realize that aviation plays an integral part of the economies of our nations and maybe, just maybe, it is high time to treat it as the national asset that it is and begin to run it as such. So enamored has been the public and financial markets with the Morraccan Bazaar atmosphere of low fares, potty-mouthed airline execs (think RyanAir!), and free lunches, that just maybe the importance of this industry has been overlooked.
Steady on. If you have to cancel them by all means do so.

 

[Flying Titan]

I agree. If it takes F16 escorts to make sure the flight is headed where it's supposed to go, then so be it. If it takes a few delayed or canceled flights, then that's what we should accept, as well. As much as these things are a nuisance and draw the kind of news coverage that nobody associated with flying would like to see, this is nothing compared to the damage that would be done by another successful attack on commercial aviation.

 

[ual06]

I certainly do not know the answer; but, the old story of the Little Shepherd boy that cried "Wolf" too often does come to mind.

 

[Ukridge]

I hope you are correct ual06. If they are crying wolf they certainly have raised some concerns here. I do aprreciate though when they do err on the side of caution. For the longest time the impression I gained of all the various secuirty issues was of a rather wily-nily approach.
Notice in the following report the comment made by Mr. Beaver. He is with the Janes Group - an orginization not known for off the cuff commentary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3362043.stm

Some interesting links on theis page as well:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/

Cheers

 

[novaqt]

I wish that the governments would raise the alert levels for themselves and stop holding press conferences. They probably could have gotten who they were looking for on AF if the whole thing had been kept out of the media until they were captured. The media/press only serves to scare the general populations which in turn affects the economy. If the CIA/FBI, Homeland Security are receiving threats, then the government should raise the alert levels. When the military goes to Def Con alert, they do not hold new conferences, why then does Homeland Security have the need to hold press conferences? The nation is beginning to think "he who cries wolf too much." Al Queda seems to be achieving its purpose of making us spend lots and lots of money and conditioning us through the media with nothing happening. I realize that when we let out guard down, they will hit us. The government and military must stand ready-alert. The nation should only be aprised when it is absolutely necessary. Al Queda will hit us when we least expect it, 1yr, 2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs. They waited from 1993 to 2001 to hit the Trade Center again.

 

[ual06]

novaqt,

I agreed with you 100%. However, there is also that very ugly side of the equation. That is the side of the "News Media" that is always so hungry and thirsty to post their names hollowing "News, News, News" or "If only we had known!"

IMHO, the biggest problem for the American Public, and others, is the news media and the politicians that do not have the guts to stand against the demands of the news media.

Yes, I do feel that if left along, appropriate agencies could do a much better job.

 

[UAL_TECH]

UAL006/novaqt,

Unfortunately we are on (one of) the ‘side’s’ of the double edge sword. When the Intelligence community does their job (as they should) they do not get the recognition and/or proper funding/recognition (as is deserved/necessary). This alludes to the ideology (theology) that the powers to be (should???) understand the importance of intervention –vs- reactionary/reconciliatory force. Given this knowledge, these actions (prior to their discovery by the populace) would be dealt with without public knowledge. However, this would take a (an) political influence (administration) that would be willing to sacrifice their agenda for the good of the Country.

Do not hold your breath on this one!!!

JMHO,
UAL_TECH

 

[Busdrvr]

"I wish that the governments would raise the alert levels for themselves and stop holding press conferences."

I disagree. There simply are not enough law enforcemant officers in this world to protect us. We MUST take a roll. Had there been a general warning prior to 9/11 that terrorist were considering hijacking jets and using them as "missiles", do you think the terrorist would have been successful? Would the pax in the first three jets have revolted? Would the flight deck crew been more "prepared" (crash ax handy) Would the F/A been more "prepared" (ice crusher handy, a plan to put a cart in the way). Even if they knew exact which flight and what the plan was, it simply would not make sence to allow pack the jet with marshalls and wait for the action. This may very well have foiled an attack. the terrorist may have tried to go back underground, but rest assured, they know the names of every pax who didn't show up for the flight. Those "legit passports" just became useless. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I still take the upgrades in status seriously, and spin up to a certain degree.

 

[Flying Titan]

I wish that the governments would raise the alert levels for themselves and stop holding press conferences. They probably could have gotten who they were looking for on AF if the whole thing had been kept out of the media until they were captured. The media/press only serves to scare the general populations which in turn affects the economy. If the CIA/FBI, Homeland Security are receiving threats, then the government should raise the alert levels. When the military goes to Def Con alert, they do not hold new conferences, why then does Homeland Security have the need to hold press conferences? The nation is beginning to think "he who cries wolf too much." Al Queda seems to be achieving its purpose of making us spend lots and lots of money and conditioning us through the media with nothing happening. I realize that when we let out guard down, they will hit us. The government and military must stand ready-alert. The nation should only be aprised when it is absolutely necessary. Al Queda will hit us when we least expect it, 1yr, 2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs. They waited from 1993 to 2001 to hit the Trade Center again.

I disagree. History has shown us that if this information is kept secret or semi-secret, we will be less safe - not safer. The government knew about threats to airliners on the Frankfurt-London-NYC route prior to Pan Am 103. The state department and other agencies issued internal alerts. Their personnel responded by steering clear of certain flights that seemed most at risk. The general public was not armed with this information. The result? Many of those who knew of this warning chose to alter their travel plans to reduce their risk. When security efforts failed, the 259 passengers on Pan Am 103 were robbed of the only opportunity they could have had to protect themselves - namely, information that there was credible evidence that this route was being targeted.

If it turned out that BA 223 were attacked and the government knew of the danger in advance, but didn't let the public know of a prior threat, then criminal charges would be appropriate against those decision makers who intentionally kept the victims in the dark. In my view, they would be just a couple of rungs below the terrorists on the ladder of culpability.

 

[Ukridge]

I do not believe that we will ever find the proper balance between the media and the government's claim to secrecy. As one who (believe this or not from my execrable scribblings on this board) works with words on a regular basis I am a staunch defender of the watchdog status of the press. Under the rubric of 'love your country - distrust your government,' I feel it imperative that their exists a forum in which the citizenry has an opportunity to closely track the service (yes, the government is actually in theory supposed to work for the governed) that is provided by those whom are in their employ - in other words the government officials who draw their pay directly from your pay purse.

Look at any dysfunctional country around the globe and I will be certain that there exits a very restricted or directly controlled domestic press. All this to merely say that no, I do not appreciate the BBC trumpeting an anti-American doggerel by breathlessly announcing that the Americans may have made a mistake in their holding/canceling of this week's past flights. Nor however, do I appreciate news as pure entertainment. This of course by viewing the mantel of Fleet Street's worst that the American media has clothed itself in. You have very little news and much news-tainment. Just watch that effluvium of that Bruce on the Fox News. Much "swooshing" sound before every snippet of info to the accompaniment of a frenetic jumble of images with “newsâ€￾ juxtaposed with what is the latest from the film industry.

What I am saying is that as odious as it is, we have to allow such news trash. This does not mean we have to consume it however. We have to read/hear those mediums that provide solid coverage of these events and hold the government responsible.

Remember those individuals who often take up high office are driven mainly by overwhelming solipsistic tendencies. Their quest for all praise glory and adulation to themselves is unquenchable. The scepter of power is what they seek and all else falls secondary. If this were not true then why is every appearance of a high U.S. governmental official stage managed better than the best West End production? This is an often dangerous admixture and it is the duty of a free press to hold these most base impulses in check. As was stated in a previous post, Pan-Am 103 was a flight to avoid for the officials but not the common cloth. This is an area where the press shines the light of day and I trust that in this case, the press is shining the light before something untoward happens.

Therefore I say that the press should vigorously cover this story. Distasteful as the presses methods may often be among the lower rank organizations, it is still less distasteful than a government that it not held accountable.

A last word on 'crying wolf.' As you know Winnie cried wolf all through the thirties. The calumny and scurrilous remarks brought his way for doing so were well outside that of standard decorum. Yet, he was right. Learning from that, many of us always ask in such a case - what if there is truth to the matter. So, what indeed if there was reasonable intelligence to ground the flights at Heathrow? I will let the diligent press sort it out post-facto!

Cheers

 

[ual06]

As I have said before, I certainly do not know the answer.

Take a look at:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/30/...ain590633.shtml

In case it does not work, it is an article from CBS News entitled "Crying Wolf On Terrorism?"

The neighborhood in which I live has a very nice "warning system" of sirens and voice announcements to warn residents of impending hazardous weather. A few years ago it would go off about ever third or fourth day, saying "Tornado Warning - Take shelter". You look outside and there would not be a single cloud in the sky. I did trace down the City Official in charge of the system and expressed my concerns over the number of false warnings. The Official did agree with me. Within about two weeks the false warnings ceased. My gut feeling was that those authorized to "punch the button" had been replaced with more "level headed" persons or they had at least been retrained.

 

[Ukridge]

Thank you for the link ual06. Indeed a difficult question all around. I would not go so far however, as did Mr. Beaver in mentioning that we "ignore" these warnings from the American government. This had been an unprecedented step and certainly merited our consideration. Just as with you scruffy weather warning system though, we are going to have to manage this situation very carefully in the future.
I also made a mistake when I mentioned that Mr. Beaver was with the Janes Group. He is a commentator and although he at one time may have been associated with Janes, I do not believe he is acting in that capacity at present. I was thinking of another individual who was mentioned in one of the articles and was quoted directly as being with Janes. A lot of different "experts" are weighing in at the moment in the press and it is hard to keep track of them!
Cheers

 

[iflyjetz]

The price of freedom is eternal vigilence. While some may say that the government is crying wolf, I am sure that there are enough officials concerned with anesthetizing the public to increased terrorism levels.

If I were king for a day, I'd kill off the entire bloodline of every known terrorist in the world. I think that you'd see a sharp decrease in suicide bombers when they know that their entire bloodline will end due to their actions.

 

[novaqt]

Please read www.terrorismexperts.org. What we need now is for the media to start deprogramming these poor pathetic misguided spiritualists. It seems to me if these ner-do-wells who are "programed" to a spiritual nirvana of the after life because they come from poor backgrounds and are made to believe they have notiong to live for, then they can be deprogrammed accordingly by the media and deprogramming experts around the world. Why aren't we using the media to our advantage? Everything coming out of Bin Laden and his leadership should be appropriately countered so the poor devils are made to believe they do have something to live for instead of committing suicide.

 

[Ukridge]

novaqt wrote: "who are "programmed" to a spiritual nirvana of the after life because they come from poor backgrounds"

Unfortunately I believe there is more than just poverty that plays a role in the troubles. Perceptions are often the most difficult to change and it is here that I would agree that the real spadework needs to be done. For in the end, it is the toxic cocktail of misguided perception and that hedged loathing against a dominant power that fuels the anger and hate. In any event, this will be a constant fight for the next few years.
Cheers