Waterboarding....torture?

[Freedom4all]

Try this. Try writing a law that prohibits the rights of one group but allows the rights of others that still abides buy the 14th amendment.

Seems to me that baby rapers shouldn't have any rights. What's so hard about that?

 

[Garfield1966]

Seems to me that baby rapers shouldn't have any rights. What's so hard about that?

Break the law, get prosecuted. No argument there. ACLU nor any other group is arguing that point. We are talking about the rights of an organization. The right to disseminate information.

The KKK has a right to exist. They have a right to hate. Once they act on their hate by making a threat, hurting someone, burning across on someones yard .. etc ... then they can be prosecuted.

Thoughts and ideas are different than actions. One can be prosecuted under US law, the othe cannot.

The 14th amendment states that laws must apply equally to all people. That is way the Shivo law in FL failed to pass muster and was deemed unconstitutional. The law was written to apply to only one person and that dog don't hunt.

 

[dapoes]

No, because you are angry at the food sever about the quality of the food instead of the chef.

Thats your reasoning?

 

[Garfield1966]

Thats your reasoning?

You have no clue as to what that means do you?

What it means is that the ACLU is defending the USC and making sure that various enforcement bodies abide by the laws on the books. If you do not like the law, then contact your legislators and have them changed. Knocking the ACLU for defending the laws is like yelling at the waiter for the quality of the food.

As I said to Freedom, the 14th amendment is quite clear. You still have not presented an argument indicating how you could circumvent the rights of one group but letting others stand and not be in violation of the 14th. I am sure if you can come up with a solution, a USSC seat would be waiting for you. The price of freedom is often quite high.

It's funny arguing (I use that term loosely) with you. When ever you run out of anything substantive to write, you come up with these lame one liners.

 

[Garfield1966]

Hey Garfield,

How is it that two ideologically opposite people like you and I can manage to "get it"? That when you infringe upon the rights of one you infringe upon the rights of us all.

inalienable rights apply to all, even baby raping NAMBLA members. It's an inconvenient truth that people need to accept.

Because you and I understand the idea behind Pastor Martin Niemöller quote. We understand that as reprehensible as the KKK is, they have a right to march on any public street in the US just like the boy scouts, or those guys with the funny red hats (I cannot recall their name at the moment). Once the KKK (or anyone else for that matter) breaks the law then you can bring the full weight of the law down on them.

It's a very simple concept but people who do not value nor understand freedom have a difficult time understanding it.

 

[dapoes]

Because you and I understand the idea behind Pastor Martin Niemöller quote. We understand that as reprehensible as the KKK is, they have a right to march on any public street in the US just like the boy scouts, or those guys with the funny red hats (I cannot recall their name at the moment). Once the KKK (or anyone else for that matter) breaks the law then you can bring the full weight of the law down on them.

It's a very simple concept but people who do not value nor understand freedom have a difficult time understanding it.

Oh I understand completely. However some lefty liberals have a problem understanding what "cause and effect" and "unintended consequences" means as well.

 

[Freedom4all]

Price of freedom is risk? What? That sounds like something you just made up!

 

[dapoes]

Actually I borrowed the line from radio talk show host Irv Homer out of Philadelphia

So its just another pundits opinion apparently. Why am I not surprised. :blink:

 

[Garfield1966]

So its just another pundits opinion apparently. Why am I not surprised. :blink:

That's pretty pathetic. Try addressing the issue instead of the choice of words used to present a POV.

Have you figured out how to limit the 1st amendment rights of NAMBLA while not violating the 14th amendment?

 

[dapoes]

That's pretty pathetic. Try addressing the issue instead of the choice of words used to present a POV.

Have you figured out how to limit the 1st amendment rights of NAMBLA while not violating the 14th amendment?

Nope...and I will never give them the courtesy either. They can all go join the Gitmo detainees or better yet...take the easy way out...

 

[Garfield1966]

Missed the point again.

If you cannot accomplish that simple task, then you cannot prosecute them for voicing or publishing their beliefs and you cannot put them in jail. It's called freedom of speech.

BTW, I found a ACLU case that did not involve a prior suit but it does go toward protecting rights being encroached upon by authority.

Nashville school and ACLU

 

[dapoes]

Out of idle curiosity have you ever read the Brandenburg decision?

I have a place in mind for the NAMBLA members and those who are pedophiles in general. However until such time as they act upon their warped desires they have the EXACT same rights as you or I!

The above is the essence of this country, in that each person is free to live their lives as they choose as long they obey the law. The Ellie Nessler case is a classic case

"California resident Ellie Nessler, shot and killed the man who was alleged to have molested her son. In a scene reminiscent of A Time To Kill, Nessler pumped five bullets into the defendant's head and neck as he sat in a courtroom for a pretrial hearing.

As would be expected, she had her fans and her distracters. Not many fans were on her jury, however, as she was sentenced to 10 years in prison after being convicted of manslaughter. After serving four years of that sentence, she was released from prison this week when a plea bargain was reached between prosecutors and her attorneys.?

One can certainly feel for Ms Nessler and her situation, however it was up to a fully informed jury to set her free. The jury as noted chose not to set her free. In the end we must remain a society of laws and not of men, lest we find ourselves in the same boat as Ms Nesler's victim.

If he did it, then he deserved it and im ok with it 101%

 

[dapoes]

On a very emotional level I'm kinda mostly OK with it too. However when I start to think about it along with things like the original topic of waterboarding that's where it all starts to unravel for me.

If it's OK to kill a child molester, then what of the other situations that arise. Are Pro-Lifers who blow up Abortion clinics less guilty then a pro choice person who kills pro lifers? Who or what group do we allow to kill with impunity?

See dapoes. I'm not wise enough to sort all of those moral implications out for an entire society so what I fall back on is the rule of law and generally speaking the law frowns on shooting your son's tormenter in open court in front of witnesses as was the case with Ellie Nessler.

And while I'm on a roll here consider this. If we follow the rule of law in the case of pedophiles and they are incarcerated. For the next however many years they are in prison is a living nightmare and one can certainly make the argument that death would be preferable to their existance under the circumstances they face as an inmate.

In the Nessler case, the jury despite judical instructions to the contrary had the right to set Ellie Nessler free. yet they chose not to and since I wasn't there I have to wonder why they didn't set her free.

Now if you want to make a case for life in prison for pedophiles one only need look to Ms Nessler's son who at age 45 has been convicted of various and sundry crimes a total of 18 times. These are difficult & emotional issues and for me that's why the rule of law must always prevail.

Think it through, the only thing that seperates us from the apes is our ability to reason. Heck a horse is stronger and a dog is friendlier so if you can't fall back on something concrete like the law then what else is there?

I hear you Piney and understand where your coming from. But in my opinion as a mother, we as a society need to look out for and protect our young. I dont think that has ever changed. So when there are groups that prey upon the young (and cling to the ACLU for protection) and we fail to recognize the potential harm they can inflict, then we as a society have failed.

 

[dapoes]

Your response raises more question then it answers which I guess is good. I've always felt that knowledge is power and in order to protect my two step sons I've shown them the NAMBLA information so that they know that pedophiles do indeed exist. I've shown them the registered sex offender web site so they know where the convicted ones live. I've done the same with the KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, skinheads and other assorted ilk.

We have a local skinhead group here and very few blacks. The older boy is friends with "THE black kid" and as a result was confronted by a local skinhead who was rather bruised and a bit bloody after their exchange of ideas and concepts

To me dapoes there is no such thing as bad information, just bad or improper use of that information. So by taking time and teaching them I think I've done all I can do as a parent to make them aware of what's out there in the world around them. Needless to say I'm raising two free thinkers and that has not served them well in the one size fits all approach of the government schools.

I asked the oldest one to ask his Social Studies teacher why the Federal Reserve Bank has never been audited. Got a call from the school that he was "Disruptive". I told them, "get used to it, he reads and asks questions" So now I'm a big P.I.T.A

Long live being a P.I.T.A!

 

[Garfield1966]

I just need to figure out a way to make money being one

Best bet would be a TV show.

Dapoes,

Look, on a personal level I am with you. Lock up the skin heads, KKK Ped's you name it. Let tem swim with sharks for all I care. My family are survivors of the Holocaust. Dad was in Auschwitz, mom was in Terezin along with my grand parents. One grand father did not make it. So yea, personally if I had a gun and a Aryan Nation A-hole was in front of me, he would at the least be walking away with a few parts missing and an application for the boys choirs.

HOW EVER. I like Piney believe that laws must apply to all people equally. Those who we despise must be afforded the same rights and freedoms as those who we hold dear. Back when the Nazis wanted to march in Skokie, we had some very very heated discussion at dinner. Mom and dad said phuck 'em, I said they had to be allowed to march. I hoped that if they were allowed to mach that none of the town ship would show up. What better statement than to allow them to march in an empty town where no one comes to listen to their crap.

You keep throwing 9/11 in my face. I knew no one who died that day. So I have no 'vested interest'. How ever, I do 'know' people who were murdered by Nazis. I almost did not exist because of them. So in that regard, I am an 'equal' to the survivors of 9/11 in that I know what it is like to hate a group/person who causes you pain.

Do I want Nazis marching down my street? Hell no. I will argue and if need be, take to the streets to defend their right to march down my street.

Laws apply to everyone or they are useless. You cannot pick and choose who gets to play. Read the poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller. Insert any groups you want for the first 3 but leave the last one the same. You, me and everyone else need to fight for the rights of the first three so that the last one does not happen.


"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

I'll fight for a Nazi to puke their hatred. If you think that is easy, you're nuts. Think about it.