Waterloo v2 ; JB Backs off in LGB

enilria

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Aug 20, 2002
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Southwest 1, Jet Blue 0
Jet Blue''s newly submitted scheduleto OAG shows one aircraft redeployed from Long Beach and placed back in JFK-Florida. The changes will appear on their website next week.
The result is a reduction of 5 roundtrips in LGB for October versus what had been planned. Three of the roundtrips are removed from LGB-OAK and two are removed from LGB-LAS.
It is very unusual for airlines to be tinkering with their schedule only a couple of weeks in advance, this smells of desperation...Will they lose those slots now? or did they fly them long enough to hold them for a while?
Some people will say they never intended to fly these abandoned slots, but that is probably not the case as the plane was moved to JFK-Florida. If they always intended the plane to be flying JFK-Florida they wouldn''t have added those Florida flights in at this late date when they will take fewer bookings.
Also, these are not the slots they lost to other airlines. Those slots were never scheduled and they had planned to operate those slots in January --- until they surrendered them.
FINALLY, since the plane was redeployed to JFK it is very unlikely they intend to fly something better (FLL/SLC/SEA/etc.) with the LGB slots in the immediate future.
Basically, it sounds like they determined that they were so empty they could combine flights and still not be full, plus any revenue they take in from adding JFK-Florida even at this late date is more than the LGB flights would have generated at $19 fares. This is a genuine black eye.
 

Farley

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Aug 21, 2002
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In my humble opinion everything you just said makes no sense at all. It's just my opinion.
 

Rhino

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Aug 20, 2002
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I think JB only implemented those short LGB turns to hold onto their 27 slots.

Once JB agreed to give some of them up, it only made sense to redeploy the assets to JFK-FL, where demand is higher, especially with Fall/Winter around the corner.
 

funguy2

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Aug 20, 2002
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I thought those flight reductions were due to the fact that JB lost 4 slots to AA, and didn't really have anything to do with the loss being produced (can't imagine its a profit at $19/perosn).
 

runway4

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Aug 21, 2002
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B6 still had not committed to those four slots when they announced their fall schedule, so those are the ones that went to AA. So, no -- the reduction in service isn't because AA has four more slots.
 

MAH4546

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Aug 22, 2002
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FLL-LGB will be announced by Halloween. The start date is likely to be 4 January 2003 with two dailies. LGB-DEN or LGB-SEA will likely be announced as well with the other three slots. These cuts are not surprising. They only placed so many frequencies to preserve slots, and they need to move more planes over to the East Coast, especially with JFK-FLL going to 16 dailies this winter. In 2003, Ft. Lauderdale will be the centre of attention for jetBlue.
 
OP
E

enilria

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Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/20/2002 11:46:03 PM MAH4546 wrote:

FLL-LGB will be announced by Halloween. The start date is likely to be 4 January 2003 with two dailies. LGB-DEN or LGB-SEA will likely be announced as well with the other three slots. These cuts are not surprising. They only placed so many frequencies to preserve slots, and they need to move more planes over to the East Coast, especially with JFK-FLL going to 16 dailies this winter. In 2003, Ft. Lauderdale will be the centre of attention for jetBlue.
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[/blockquote]

Perhaps, but can these 5 vacated slots slots without flying them. I thought not.
 

Farley

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Aug 21, 2002
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Perhaps, but can these five vacated slots slots without flying them. I thought not.

Oh, now I understand the problem. Could you post in plain English for those of us who don't have secret decoders? Ouch my genuine black eye is smarting.
 
Aug 19, 2002
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LGB has always allowed airlines to keep slots without flying them by paying a reservation fee. It used to be that an airline could keep the slot for something like 90 days without flying. The City Of Long Beach changed that to 12 months before giving the slots to JB, which is what sparked part of AA's complaint. It may be possible that all JB needs to do is operate the slots for a short time and then pay a fee to keep the slots for another 90 days, until new service is started to other cities out of LGB and more equipment arrives.
 

G4G5

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Aug 21, 2002
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Which only shows the folks at LGB that they were wrong to give the slots to an airline that has no intension of using them. This will only help to spark the debate that the slots should be given to anyone that want's them(AA, AK, ATA, yada yada).

If B6 continues to play games at LGB they run the risk of loosing their slots.

Anyone question Carty's ability, the slot game played out exactly the way AA wanted it to.
 

Farley

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Aug 21, 2002
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So now we are to beleive that AA and the rest of the bunch always wanted these slots, and big, mean Jetblue is holding them back? Interesting spin.
 

jbu320

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Aug 21, 2002
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G4G5 wrote:

Which only shows the folks at LGB that they were wrong to give the slots to an airline that has no intension of using them. This will only help to spark the debate that the slots should be given to anyone that want's them(AA, AK, ATA, yada yada).


If B6 continues to play games at LGB they run the risk of loosing their slots.


Anyone question Carty's ability, the slot game played out exactly the way AA wanted it to.
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WOW. You really lost me on this one. I don't see where the games come in or how Carty has won this round. Maybe I am on a different page than you, but my perspective shows that a set of 27 slots were awarded B6 and were to be used within 18 months. (Enter AA et al.) w/ threats of lawsuits and the timeframe is shortened somewhat. End result is that all slots will be utilized within the 18 months less a few. I don't see where the realignment of segments to (undisclosed at this time, yet predictable) new destinations makes this a game. The people of LGB apparently really are enjoying this game with the number of players signing up to play. Yes, I for one question Carty's ability.
I am not following you when you say this has played out the way AA wanted.

Off the record, are you disgruntled or just have jock itch? Awhile back, you stated that you had interviewed with B6 and since then you have blasted away at B6 with all barrels. I wonder what the real story is here......smells of fish to me.
 

G4G5

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Aug 21, 2002
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Why was B6 competing with LUV in the first place?

Why is it that B6 started all the low cost, low yeild LGB flying?

If B6 is in LGB they are not in JFK, do you think that was in the orignal business plan?

What about the law suites? Did AA get the slots?

What about the fines for unused slots?

First off I am not disgruntal, I turned them down. I may live to regret it or if you look at Neelman's track record, build it and leave(Morris and Westjet), I may not. What concerns me more is the actions of Carty. He was able to get slots from B6 and force them to take up a zero profit dog fight with the kings of low cost, all while AA continues to build their massive terminal at JFK(2 million square feet with 50+ gates). Do you really think that this was about 4 slots in LGB? Sure they are nice but if B6 is using the assets out west they are not in the east.

If he slowed down Neelmans expansion plans at JFK, then he succeded. If he put JetBlue on Southwest radar screen(how hard was he laughing at the $19 fares) then he succeded. If he forced B6 to spend valuable capital on fines for the unused LGB slots, then he succeded. If he forced them into the courts and more money with lawyers, then he succeded. If he got LGB slots, then he succeded. If he now has B6 changing their plans back to the East coast(wasted marketing, build up, yada yada), then he succeded.

Had enough? Or you still don't get it. The 4 slots were just the gravy. He had Neelman spending money and changing his expansion plans. To the point where he gave up the fight for the 4 slots and walked away from the LGB low cost stuff. Or are you of the belief that all that low cost LGB flying was in the orignal 5 year plan?

You think that this is it and Carty will just walk away? Or does the shark smell blood. From here on in nothing is going to be easy and B6 better plan on increasing the funds allocated to keeping the lawyers on retainer.

You may want to take another breath if you smell fish, could be it's you that stinks. I have no beef with B6 on occasion I have even said nice things. I call it the way I see it. Take a look at my post for the B6 expansion. It was positive and posted yesterday before I wrote anything here.
 

Speedbird

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Aug 20, 2002
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Why is AMR changing its business plan?

Why is AMR losing $5 million/day?

Why is AMR's stock price below $5/share and still dropping?

As someone else described, jetBlue may have suffered a blackeye from recent events occurring at LGB (I have my doubts about that), but it is far better than the compound fractures that AMR has in both legs.

The numbers have not been published yet for Q3 with regard to how poorly B6 is doing in the intra-California market. And until then it is all just speculation and wishful thinking by some about jetBlue's operations out of LGB.

With that said the fundamentals are still in place. JetBlue is the low-cost provider in the marketplace, based on CASM numbers. They even out perform LUV, the industry gold standard.

On a per-airplane basis, jetBlue generates over 35% more revenue than LUV. It maintains a higher average load factor than LUV, and a higher average airfare as well. B6 is able to generate the same number of ASMs as LUV using 27% fewer aircraft. Additionally, B6 provides a better level of service than LUV with advanced seating, live TV, more comfortable seats, and cabin service.

The only disadvantage(s) that jetBlue has to overcome is LUV's rapid rewards program, and their leadership position in the market.

Now if jetBlue can perform this well against LUV, imagine what they're doing to AMR, UAL, and other majors who must compete with them. I wonder how many passengers B6 had siphoned from SJC and SFO over the last few months with their OAK service. I wonder if that had anything to do with AMR announcing the closure of several routes out of SJC recently.

Go ahead and count your successes when you think you've got one to crow about. I appreciate your concern about jetBlue, but you'd be better served by keeping a closer watch on your own kettle of fish at AMR, since they're the ones currently funding your paycheck.
 

jbu320

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Aug 21, 2002
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[blockquote]


You may want to take another breath if you smell fish, could be it's you that stinks. I have no beef with B6 on occasion I have even said nice things. I call it the way I see it. Take a look at my post for the B6 expansion. It was positive and posted yesterday before I wrote anything here.

______________________________________________________________________
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You're right, I took another sniff and what I smell is that you're (1)
Smoking some powerful stuff and (2) A definite aroma of sour grapes.

For an uninterested party, you've got some serious research(?) and opinions into a little old startup carrier. You have not only taken today's actions and blown out of proportion; Mate, you're in the wrong business - You should be a prophet with the foresight or imagination you have. Lighten up. You'll never make it to 60.
You do have one thing very right. The story is just in the initial chapters. If you can write the conclusion you are a very astute observer. Hang on. And by the way, Thanks for saying positive things about B6 in earlier posts. We are blessed by your opinion....