Hopeful
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- Dec 21, 2002
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We need cheap fares to compete....
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MCI transplant
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<_< ------- Another fine example of "deregulation!" Great for the flying public!------ Not so great for the employees of the Airline Industry!!!! At those prices, they're giving seats away! And who ends up paying for those seats? ------- You guessed it!!! :angry: And what's next? Bar stools with sear belts? ------- You think that's funny? Read the article on Ryan Air! You know, the outfit that is also considering "pay toilets"!
<_< ------- "pay toilets"!
True we're all trying to swim to safety, but because of airline deregulation, anyone can push the flush button.
FA Mikey
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It is a 48 hour sale for flights in one of the slowest times of the year. (Sept 9 thru Nov 18)
jimntx
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If Southwest is having the same sale, then you can bet the rent money on the fact that the seats would be going out empty otherwise. $100 for the seat is better than $0 for the seat.
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<_< -------Problem is they're not asking $100!!!-----And yes, I realize it's only a limited time sale!
Most employees hired at a US airline since the 80's probably wouldn't have a job if dereg didn't occur. There wouldn't have been as many spawned (and failed) airlines, and the "big" carriers at the time - PA, EA, AA, TW, US, UA, CO, DL, NW (although US was the smallest of them all) would have been consolidated or shut completely(as some did) rather than go through round after round of bankruptcy.
In what industry has government regulation ever helped achieve growth?
jimntx
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As long as government regulation controlled routes and fares (the Civil Aeronautics Board, IIRC), most people could not afford to fly. And, there was very limited service on most routes. In fact, a lot of routes were purposely monopolized by a single airline. It was believed that competition on the route--say, Dallas to Austin--would destroy any and all service between the two cities.
As you say, the growth of the airlines and most of our jobs can be directly attributed to deregulation. The problem as I see it is that we have gotten into this "too big to fail" trap--not only for airlines, but other industries. In a truly deregulated business environment, we would let the chips fall where they may. If the company management makes dumb decisions, the company goes out of business. Granted a lot of people get hurt that had no say in those decisions, but we forget that the Constitution does not guarantee anyone a job--whether union or not.
As you say, the growth of the airlines and most of our jobs can be directly attributed to deregulation. The problem as I see it is that we have gotten into this "too big to fail" trap--not only for airlines, but other industries. In a truly deregulated business environment, we would let the chips fall where they may. If the company management makes dumb decisions, the company goes out of business. Granted a lot of people get hurt that had no say in those decisions, but we forget that the Constitution does not guarantee anyone a job--whether union or not.
FA Mikey
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But they don't go out of business. They continue to exist and bring down the rest of the industry. If it was a situation like Braniff, who filed and didn't fly until they had financing and a business plan. Instead we see carriers filing multiple times and still with out a clear workable profitable business plan. They drag down the industry.
MCI transplant
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<_< -----It's true, the Airline Industry would look a lot different if it hadn't deregulated. I don't agree with you when you say "most people could not afford to fly". It's true fares would be much higher, and fewer people would fly, but from someone who has worked both in a "regulated, and unregulated" market, I believe that's a big part of our problem! The General Public has had it "too good", for "too long"! They have come too believe that low air fares are one of their God given rights!!! Well guess what? It's not!------Because of deregulation, we're coming to the point of bar stools with seat belts, and pay toilets! Your saying regulation is a bad thing for our country. ------Again I disagree! Wake up man! Look at our Banking Industry that was "deregulated" a few years back. Our economy wouldn't be in this mess it's in now if some idiot hadn't come up with that bright idea!----- Some sort of regulation is not only prudent, but necessary, in both these areas!----- Getting back to the Airline Industry. If we continue down this same path, AA will be forced to go into bankruptcy, if for no other reasons but to shade itself of it's dept, and Union Contracts, just to compete, as the majority of the others in the Industry have done, and outsource it's heavy maintenance! Or,---- consolidate with an International Carrier. Or both! Then where will your "deregulated" jobs be? In fact it will be just a matter of time before all the rest of the Industry will be doing just that! ------- Once that happens, we will be talking about two, or three, "multinational" Carriers flying the International routs, and Washington will give foreign Carriers rights to fly point to point within the US!----- That my friend has started already! And once that happens, that will be the end of "cheap fares"! Uncle Sam will loose control of the domestic fleet in time of war! ---- Everyone is shouting: "Free Trade! Free Trade!", when they should be shouting: " Fair Trade!" Fair Trade!"------The American unemployment rate will soon exceed 10%! In some areas of the country higher, with no sign of leveling off soon! We have exported all our heavy Industry, and good paying jobs, in the name of cheap labor, while Washington brags about how many McDonald's, and Wal Mart, jobs it has created! Largely because we have let thousands of foreign workers come into this country both legally, through loopholes specifically designed into the law to import skilled, cheap, labor, and illegal, that our own news media refuse to call "illegal", for the same reasons! :down:------In fact the mantra of "Political Correctness" has gone waaaay too far! It's time to get back to common sense, and America first!!!! And if that means regulating some of our remaining Industries, so be it!!!!
MCI - Lots of business sectors in this country have some kind of regulation that exist for public safety. But that's not the same as letting the government actually regulate how a business operates and what prices it charges. So, to that end, airlines are regulated by the FAA and DOT. But those agencies don't tell an airline how to manage its businesss in terms of routes and fares, nor should they.
To your point about foreign airlines flying point to point in the US - can you elaborate more on that? Virgin Express is a wholly formed US company, and Qantas flies JFK-LAX but they can't actually sell tickets for that specific segment.
Your earlier post implies that airline deregulation was bad because of how the employees are being screwed now, 20 years later without looking at the overall economics. It has been proven time and time again that capitalism provides growth. The problem with airlines is that there is simply too much competition that there is very little pricing power anymore. This happens in other industries, too and guess what - they consolidate and grow.
To your point about foreign airlines flying point to point in the US - can you elaborate more on that? Virgin Express is a wholly formed US company, and Qantas flies JFK-LAX but they can't actually sell tickets for that specific segment.
Your earlier post implies that airline deregulation was bad because of how the employees are being screwed now, 20 years later without looking at the overall economics. It has been proven time and time again that capitalism provides growth. The problem with airlines is that there is simply too much competition that there is very little pricing power anymore. This happens in other industries, too and guess what - they consolidate and grow.
MCI transplant
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<_< -------- PHL, Believe me, I'm a Capitalist at heart! I don't like the Government sticking their nose into any of, what I believe to be, my own personal business, anymore than you do!-------- But, the Airline Industry is not like just any other sector in our economy. It is unique! It's more akin to a Utility than other Industries.--------- It is vital to our national security!------- Just let some Union go out on strike and shut a major Carrier down for any length of time, and watch how fast the President would step in with a Court Order to put them back to work using exactly those same words!--------- I'll tell you what! Let's "deregulate" all the Utility Companies, and let them all Compete with each other and see what happens!!!
What I was referring to with the Internationals flying point to point in the US was, the new "Open Sky's" treaty we just signed with the Europeans. Plus the political, and economic pressure, that is being exerted to that end in resent years, by Washington, and Wall St.!--------If nothing is done, I believe it will only be a matter of time and it will happen! ----------I'm not saying to go back to the CAB days! But I do believe some sort of controls are vital if this Industry is to survive, as we know it!!!
jimntx
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I was talking about then, not now or in the future. Relative to household income, airfares were much higher 30 years ago than they are now. When I first started working for Texaco in Houston, airfares and routes were still regulated. If I needed to go to our Producing office in New Orleans, a r-t ticket on Eastern or Delta (the only two airlines allowed to serve IAH-MSY then) cost around $400. Right now I could book a r-t on WN or CO for 7/14-7/17 for $274 unrestricted, and as low as $231 with restrictions.
Yeah, well that opinion and a quarter will get you into that pay toilet. We are not going back to the days of only AA and CO are allowed to fly DFW-IAH and the fare will be $350 r-t. It's just not going to happen.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The consolidation of air carriers is going to happen whether the industry is regulated or not. However, I would say that re-regulation will increase the likelihood of consolidation or airlines going out of business, not decrease it. You are assuming that when the government takes back over that they will automatically give preference to AMR. What if the Senator with the most clout happens to be an Illinois Senator who hates Texas as a state and loves UAL as an airline?
I have no problem with government regulation. I'm a yellow-dog Democrat. What I have a problem with is the government propping up companies that have made bad choices and should go out of business as a result of those choices (see also the automobile industry). There is a reason that some companies have no source of funding other than the government. It's because the financial institutions that lend money have better sense than to give money to enterprises that are already bankrupt--whether they have filed or not.
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<_< ----- Everyone has an opinion! I gave you mine. Let's leave it at that!!!----- And when I said "America first", I wasn't referring to an Airline!!!!
As I've posted before, airline deregulation has been good to the-now 300 million Americans and not so good for the several hundred thousand employees of the legacy airlines. Of course, 31 years ago, the legacies employed fewer employees than they do today, despite the widespread job losses suffered in the past eight years. But non-airline Americans have benefitted from much lower airfares (in real terms).
IMO, government has no place deciding which airlines can fly which domestic routes and determining the fares. Others will disagree. I think they're out to lunch, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
And yes, I agree that the failing airlines should have been allowed to fail. For eight years now, the lifeboats have been overloaded - time to toss some out so the others might thrive. But sadly, that hasn't happened.
IMO, government has no place deciding which airlines can fly which domestic routes and determining the fares. Others will disagree. I think they're out to lunch, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
And yes, I agree that the failing airlines should have been allowed to fail. For eight years now, the lifeboats have been overloaded - time to toss some out so the others might thrive. But sadly, that hasn't happened.
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