What you fail to grasp

[chipmunn]

Oldpropguy:

Your comments are inaccurate and do not correctly tell the story.

In regard to the parity review the pilot group had that concept forced upon us. However, the parity review had a look back provision that had our work group paid its contractually provided contract changes one year after the composite carrier.

If the composite carrier had their pay and benefits reduced so would US ALPA and if the composite carrier had its pay and benefits increased so would US ALPA.

In regard to your comment of take, take and take I believe that comment can be made to every union.

The thought process on RJ's by those in power at the time, was to try and preserve mainline flying and to prevent the outsourcing of mainline jobs.

Regardless, it appears the company may sweeten the pot to cut a deal and prevent a liquidation that could occur before the end of March or in just a matter of weeks.

We'll see how this works out.

Chip

 

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
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On 2/23/2003 12:48:02 AM Zephyr wrote:

Who gave you guys the idea that you need to beat up on your neighbor so that you can keep your job?

Has anyone noticed that Austin and company get 8% of the new stock. And has anyone noticed who gets almost 40% of the company for $250 million?

Have you all forgotten that the employees have given over a billion dollars a year, and the authorization for over 500 Airplanes to be operated at affiliate express carriers, (though SouthWest has long ago proved the irrelevance of express affiliates to profitability).

Clearly, the company has far more than it needs to make a profit. (If they can’t make a profit with what they have already been given, then they shouldn’t be allowed to stay at home without adult supervision.) If you guys are willing to give anymore, you will soon find that Austin miscalculated (I'm sorry agian), and now needs you to pay to use the restroom, or he will be forced to stop buying toilet paper, blah, blah,blah.

If you all would stop beating each other long enough to look around, you might be able to notice what further givebacks are accomplishing.

Zeph
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[/blockquote]

Zeph,

You are so right.

 

[Zephyr]

[blockquote]
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Chip wrote:

“…Regardless, it appears the company may sweeten the pot to cut a deal and prevent a liquidation that could occur before the end of March or in just a matter of weeks…â€￾
-----------------[/blockquote]


They are fishing for 51%, and you all have been primed for the catch.

 

[OldpropGuy]

[blockquote]
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On 2/23/2003 12:46:08 AM ONTHESTREET wrote:

Parity plus one was 100% Wolfs Idea. He is the one who pushed that during contract 98. ALPA did not want it. Remember that Wolf thought that parity plus one would result in drastic pay cuts for the pilots.........just another item to show that he had no clue.
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[/blockquote]
Most of the beneficiaries from parity plus one seem to think it doesn't count, because it wasn't the pilot groups' idea. Regardless, it did result in substantial pay increases for the pilots which other groups didn't receive.

 

[OldpropGuy]

[blockquote]
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On 2/23/2003 12:54:39 AM chipmunn wrote:

Oldpropguy:

Your comments are inaccurate and do not correctly tell the story.

In regard to the parity review the pilot group had that concept forced upon us. However, the parity review had a look back provision that had our work group paid its contractually provided contract changes one year after the composite carrier.

If the composite carrier had their pay and benefits reduced so would US ALPA and if the composite carrier had its pay and benefits increased so would US ALPA.

>Me: Regardless, it did result in substantial pay increases for the pilots which other groups didn't receive.

In regard to your comment of take, take and take I believe that comment can be made to every union.

>Me: True. But, it seems ALPA was more successful than most. Good for them, at the time. Unfortunately it seems to have come back to haunt us all in the end.

The thought process on RJ's by those in power at the time, was to try and preserve mainline flying and to prevent the outsourcing of mainline jobs.

>Me: It is apparent that this was flawed thinking as we should have been replacing our turboprops to stay competitive. Seems this hard stance eventually led to the loss of mainline flying and jobs.
(continued next post)

 

[OldpropGuy]

Regardless, it appears the company may sweeten the pot to cut a deal and prevent a liquidation that could occur before the end of March or in just a matter of weeks.

We'll see how this works out.

Chip
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[/blockquote]

>Me: I truly hope, for all involved, that a workable solution can be reached before it is too late. If, by some miracle, we do emerge from this mayhem, we all must put aside our differences and work together as we remember our past mistakes. Good luck to us all!

 

[delldude]

this is going to be very interesting...its on record now Bronner said in court there may be other ways of making up he pension shortage.what does this mean?now suddenly big D comes running to the other labor groups?his back against the wall?it would be all too obvious then that we would be funding their pension problem and then that would make for a strange and interesting dilema....
i'm sure the other labor groups will stand right up to the challenge and give again?
then i wonder if these posts will take a 360 degree spin?

 

[PITbull]

Yea Hula, I have that same "visual".

 

[PITbull]

And as a consequence, that pariety increase made the pension liability for ALPA go OFF the charts. And UA is even in worse shape with their pension issue from their increases, as well.

 

[Hula Girl]

Okay, so management gets 8%. Exactly how many people is that? And how much money are we talking about? Millions??!!! But the company has to be here for them to profit. And if the pilots do not have their pensions terminated then the company liqudiates, right? I just am so tired of hearing that we will liquidate time after time after time. This has caused me so much anxiety and sleepless weeks that I fully believe it is time to throw in the towel. These 8%ers stand to make a WINDFALL at the expense of the pilots and if anyone thinks that more cuts are not in line for any other employee groups then remember this quote, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I told my boyfriend that this is one line in the sand that I would be proud for him NOT TO CROSS. I believe that this would set a very bad standard for the American worker if a company can just terminate a worker's pension even though they have admitted that there are other ways to get the needed money. I also have a lot invested in this company but there is enough time for me to start over. I just can't help but have visions of the people at Crystal City laughing and toasting with champagne every time we voted in a contract after being threatened with liquidation.

 

[LavMan]

You all seem to forget the pilots are getting 20% and I believe getting thier soon to be worthless shares from the MetroJet concessions replaced also.

 

[T-bone]

Chipster I still can't fathom the fact that you don't get it. Your attitude of if it's good for the pilots it's good for all. Vis-a-vie if it's not good for the pilots let them eat cake is galling. When deals where struck and you benifited all well and fine, when parity worked for you and not the other groups, all well and fine. You perfidious, prevaricating lout! Now the shoe's on the other foot so you scream foul. Take stock, look in the mirror. realy, you should seek help.

 

[Hope777]

T-Bone, Chip gets it. It is just the Pilots Mentality. $crew the rest of the employees for me,me,me. They didn't care years ago when THEY got paid durring the maintenance strike or the pay for sitting home when we parked the F100's. And lets not forget about the RJ scope which has put this company in the corprate disadvantage it is in today. I honestly don't know who is worse, Chip(and his ALPA buddies) or Dave. One thing I still don't understand is how Chip didnt get fired over the Editorial he wrote for the Charlotte Observer saying how the CSA and FLEET are going to bring down the company. Well, this time I guess its going to be the pilot group but hell, they got us into this position anyway.

 

[mrplanes]

Hope:

Management got us into this predicament. Just like Southwest's management got them into theirs. It takes many types of employees to run a hospital. But the Doctor's are paid the most. Why is that? It takes many types of employees to run a judicial system. But the judges and attorneys are paid the most. Why is that? In a capitalistic system some employees are worth more than others. That's not ego. That's just fact. What we chose to do for a living has no bearing on what you chose to do. We get paid (including our pension) based on what we are worth to any given business entity.

I disagree with Chip plying one group against any other. The givebacks we gave are irrelevant to the givebacks you gave. The raises we got are irrelevant to the raises you got. Your pensions are irrelevant to our pensions. Fairness is also irrelevant. Our worth is directly related to what this company thinks it is worth. That is not greed. That is business. And class warfare or petty jealousy is childish. Reality is reality. And that reality is simply that pilots are worth more than any other employee group (other than the upper mgt.) because capitalism dictates it. So get off the "greedy" pilot soapbox. It is irrelevant and foolish.

This management holds the key to the survival of this airline. There is absolutely a way for this pension issue to work out. To the benefit of the company AND the pilots. They know it and we know it. Your attempt to blame the pilots for this fiasco is exactly what Dave and the boys are hoping for. Becausde divide and conquer is the first class at Harvard Business School. I personally don't care who you blame the mess on. And your grasp of reality and captitalism seems to be linked to the tired mantra of liberal class envy and warfare. But that is your right to believe what you want.

If U fails the reason will be that Dave miscalculated how much a pilot pension is worth and what the pilot's are willing to accept. It is just that simple. It has nothing to do with you or any other employee group. The fate of USAirways rests soley on Dave Siegel's shoulders. Plain and simple.

mr

 

[michael707767]

[blockquote]
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On 2/22/2003 514 PM chipmunn wrote:

Chip comments: Zephyr, I disagree. Every group took a restructuring agreement and modified restructuring agreement cut, but nobody except the pilots has taken a third cut with their retirement this year or has been asked for a devastating fourth cut.

[/blockquote]

Chip,
back when we were voting on our concessions, I was against it. I believe I told you that if we accepted those concessions the company would be back for more. It seems I was right. Folks, I also predict that once the company has screwed ALPA, the rest of us will be next. At what point do we say enough is enough? It seems ALPA has reached that point.
Michael