What''s at stake: American''s future
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WingNaPrayer
Veteran
Far be it for me to agree with smasher, but dammit JJ, he's right! There is nothing wrong with continually hammering home a point, especially when it is clearly undisputable. So maybe [EM]you[/EM] can get over [EM]that[/EM]?
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
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NHBB, don't forget that when Crandall "shrunk" the airline to profitibility, he did it thru B scale.
will fix for food
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 1/21/2003 11
08 PM AA80Driver wrote:
The company is not in a position it can't win. APA is using Comair as a benchmark for compensation in negotiations for small jet flying. The rates for the CRJ-70 negotiated in 2000 were comprable with regional rates. That contract extension failed to ratify after the UA pilots got their deal just before the vote. If APA get Comair wages to fly small jets, will they be able to compete with Comair/ASA?.
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Are you talking about matching the full benefit package dollar for dollar or just the wages? I know for a fact that an A/A pilot's benefits package is substantially better, and far more expensive, than ComAirs.
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On 1/21/2003 11
08 PM AA80Driver wrote: The company is not in a position it can't win. APA is using Comair as a benchmark for compensation in negotiations for small jet flying. The rates for the CRJ-70 negotiated in 2000 were comprable with regional rates. That contract extension failed to ratify after the UA pilots got their deal just before the vote. If APA get Comair wages to fly small jets, will they be able to compete with Comair/ASA?.
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[/blockquote]
Are you talking about matching the full benefit package dollar for dollar or just the wages? I know for a fact that an A/A pilot's benefits package is substantially better, and far more expensive, than ComAirs.
will fix for food
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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In case anyone is interested, Eagle President Peter Bowler has a recorded message at 1-800-555-2670 that reports that A/A has submitted a counterproposal to the APA in regards to the merger. Of course he does not give out any of the details of A/A's proposal however I did find it interesting that he said that the APA's proposal was for a staple of the AE pilots. Given that there is about 1000 American pilots on furlough and there are about 2000 Eagle pilots, how would it be cost effective in the short term to lay off roughly half of the Eagle pilots and train replacements?
AA80Driver,
Not only, as Will Fix points out, is a mainline pilots benefits package better, but so is the pay & benefits apckage of the AA mechanics, fleet service, gate agents, etc. It's not just a matter of pilots, it's the total cost of running AE vs. AA. There's a reason that the regionals are growing and mainline companies are shrinking...they have lower costs and better margins....and in some cases are profitable. ExpressJet made money this past quarter and CO didn't...it's happening all over.
Not only, as Will Fix points out, is a mainline pilots benefits package better, but so is the pay & benefits apckage of the AA mechanics, fleet service, gate agents, etc. It's not just a matter of pilots, it's the total cost of running AE vs. AA. There's a reason that the regionals are growing and mainline companies are shrinking...they have lower costs and better margins....and in some cases are profitable. ExpressJet made money this past quarter and CO didn't...it's happening all over.
gogogadget
Advanced
- Aug 21, 2002
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My understanding is that they are working on an agreement to allow the gradual phasing in of the current furloghees as the Eagle operation expands. Since the 8K filing has considerable growth, in the next few years this would allow for the filling of vacancies from the top down until everyone is back on the list.
will fix for food
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 8:08:19 PM gogogadget wrote:
My understanding is that they are working on an agreement to allow the gradual phasing in of the current furloghees as the Eagle operation expands. Since the 8K filing has considerable growth, in the next few years this would allow for the filling of vacancies from the top down until everyone is back on the list.
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This makes more sense from a business standpoint, but brings up a slew of other questions........It would seem that if there was a staple job that would mean that there would be Eagle guys flying while AA furloughees with more seniority were not. Would this situation be "waived" (for lack of a better term)until the furloughee can return to a seat and resume his rightful place on the list?
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On 1/22/2003 8:08:19 PM gogogadget wrote:
My understanding is that they are working on an agreement to allow the gradual phasing in of the current furloghees as the Eagle operation expands. Since the 8K filing has considerable growth, in the next few years this would allow for the filling of vacancies from the top down until everyone is back on the list.
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[/blockquote]
This makes more sense from a business standpoint, but brings up a slew of other questions........It would seem that if there was a staple job that would mean that there would be Eagle guys flying while AA furloughees with more seniority were not. Would this situation be "waived" (for lack of a better term)until the furloughee can return to a seat and resume his rightful place on the list?
[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 9:35:10 AM bagsmasher wrote:
Grow up & wake up, huh? Carty committed the unforgivable sin when he put TWAer's on the seniority list ahead of his own employees. I am not going to reward him for this. So if this is what you mean by "grow up," it ain't going to happen. This wound will not heal. As far as waking up, wake up to what? The fact that we are going under? I've already woke up to that fact. The major mistake of buying a failed carrier should have woke us all up to that fact.
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It may not heal in your mind but there isn't much of a wound in the grand scheme of things. No body says anything to me at least nothing to my face. And I sincerely like the people I work with. You are the one with the problem so have at it. It isn't like you will say your fill without hidding behind your online name. I really don't wish you any ill will but throwing little tantrums on this board gets you nothing but heartburn along with WnP's approval. Whatever thats worth.
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On 1/22/2003 9:35:10 AM bagsmasher wrote:
Grow up & wake up, huh? Carty committed the unforgivable sin when he put TWAer's on the seniority list ahead of his own employees. I am not going to reward him for this. So if this is what you mean by "grow up," it ain't going to happen. This wound will not heal. As far as waking up, wake up to what? The fact that we are going under? I've already woke up to that fact. The major mistake of buying a failed carrier should have woke us all up to that fact.
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[/blockquote]
It may not heal in your mind but there isn't much of a wound in the grand scheme of things. No body says anything to me at least nothing to my face. And I sincerely like the people I work with. You are the one with the problem so have at it. It isn't like you will say your fill without hidding behind your online name. I really don't wish you any ill will but throwing little tantrums on this board gets you nothing but heartburn along with WnP's approval. Whatever thats worth.
Connected1
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 332
- 0
[blockquote]
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On 1/23/2003 8
51 AM AAquila wrote:
From the TWU side of the world, one of the ways that AA could reduce payroll costs at hub stations would be to increase the number of part-time slots while reducing full-time.
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[/blockquote]
Sounds like we have one vote for lifting the 126 PT cap at DFW. Only thousands more to go...
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On 1/23/2003 8
51 AM AAquila wrote: From the TWU side of the world, one of the ways that AA could reduce payroll costs at hub stations would be to increase the number of part-time slots while reducing full-time.
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[/blockquote]
Sounds like we have one vote for lifting the 126 PT cap at DFW. Only thousands more to go...
From the TWU side of the world, one of the ways that AA could reduce payroll costs at hub stations would be to increase the number of part-time slots while reducing full-time. The introduction of part-time Mechanics slots is also feasible and should be studied. These full-time slot reductions would be initiated on the most senior shifts (where there are many who hold on for some sort of 'buyout' package that isn't forthcoming) , making those with enough time, retire and move along.
This is all certainly more preferable to hundreds getting the ax and being thrown into a jobless war economy.
This is all certainly more preferable to hundreds getting the ax and being thrown into a jobless war economy.
The current proposals on the table in the end will allow junior AA pilots to fly while more senior AE pilots are on the street. How? By allowing the airline to use captain seats for APA pilots to come back off the street, and when they are hiring again allowing hiring to go straight to mainline while restricting movement of commuter supplement guys to the mainline. If they furlough again you will have guys way junior to commuter guys on the senority list bunping guys at the commuter with far more senority. The current proposals have nothing good for AE pilots and in their current form will not pass a vote.
So what is the answer? Well
1. All future hiring goes to the bottom of the senority list and holds what that senority will hold.
2. Not one AE pilot should have his job affected negatively by this agreement.
3. Future furloughs are by senority order.
4. No commuter supplement just one list, one contract.
5. If there is any restriction to commuter pilots moving up then the commuter aircraft should not be used for AA to get there furloughs off the street while ours sit on the street.
6. Once RJ's are used to pull AA furloughs off the street they go to what there senority can hold not to a Captains seat.
7. All AX flying will be phased out and cease to exist.
8. Pay rates and work rules worked out.
There are many more issues but this names a few of the concerns of AE pilots that actually have alot to loose with the current proposals. Personally I think that AMR is counting on the fact that these proposals will not pass a vote at AE.
Jetdryvr
So what is the answer? Well
1. All future hiring goes to the bottom of the senority list and holds what that senority will hold.
2. Not one AE pilot should have his job affected negatively by this agreement.
3. Future furloughs are by senority order.
4. No commuter supplement just one list, one contract.
5. If there is any restriction to commuter pilots moving up then the commuter aircraft should not be used for AA to get there furloughs off the street while ours sit on the street.
6. Once RJ's are used to pull AA furloughs off the street they go to what there senority can hold not to a Captains seat.
7. All AX flying will be phased out and cease to exist.
8. Pay rates and work rules worked out.
There are many more issues but this names a few of the concerns of AE pilots that actually have alot to loose with the current proposals. Personally I think that AMR is counting on the fact that these proposals will not pass a vote at AE.
Jetdryvr
[blockquote]----------------On 1/22/2003 2:53:06 PM eolesen wrote: NHBB, don't forget that when Crandall "shrunk" the airline to profitibility, he did it thru B scale.----------------[/blockquote]
And without the B scale all these critics would not have gotten jobs at AA. I met one or two who complained about the money Crandall spent on new MD 80s, which is what they were hired to work on.
This time there won't be a B,C or W scale. What does SWA call their overhaul mechanics at BF Goodrich and Cascade?
And without the B scale all these critics would not have gotten jobs at AA. I met one or two who complained about the money Crandall spent on new MD 80s, which is what they were hired to work on.
This time there won't be a B,C or W scale. What does SWA call their overhaul mechanics at BF Goodrich and Cascade?
will fix for food
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 1/24/2003 9:32:18 AM jetdryvr wrote:
The current proposals on the table in the end will allow junior AA pilots to fly while more senior AE pilots are on the street. How? By allowing the airline to use captain seats for APA pilots to come back off the street, and when they are hiring again allowing hiring to go straight to mainline while restricting movement of commuter supplement guys to the mainline. If they furlough again you will have guys way junior to commuter guys on the senority list bunping guys at the commuter with far more senority. The current proposals have nothing good for AE pilots and in their current form will not pass a vote.
Jetdryvr
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[/blockquote]
So what's your point? I don/t think you know your place Jetdryvr......
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On 1/24/2003 9:32:18 AM jetdryvr wrote:
The current proposals on the table in the end will allow junior AA pilots to fly while more senior AE pilots are on the street. How? By allowing the airline to use captain seats for APA pilots to come back off the street, and when they are hiring again allowing hiring to go straight to mainline while restricting movement of commuter supplement guys to the mainline. If they furlough again you will have guys way junior to commuter guys on the senority list bunping guys at the commuter with far more senority. The current proposals have nothing good for AE pilots and in their current form will not pass a vote.
Jetdryvr
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[/blockquote]
So what's your point? I don/t think you know your place Jetdryvr......
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #30
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 12:12:59 PM j7915 wrote:
[P][/P]What does SWA call their overhaul mechanics at BF Goodrich and Cascade?
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I doubt they call them SRP/OSM's and also doubt that they are glorified building cleaners posing as professional mechanics.[/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 12:12:59 PM j7915 wrote:
[P][/P]What does SWA call their overhaul mechanics at BF Goodrich and Cascade?
[P][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I doubt they call them SRP/OSM's and also doubt that they are glorified building cleaners posing as professional mechanics.[/P]
