Where are the RJ''s Chip?


Aug 28, 2002
Ok Chip. Its been over a year since Mgt started screaming from the top of their lungs about how important RJs are to U''s survial, yet we still only have 70 (none owned by Group) flying and none on order. If the RJs are so important to this airline, why hasn''t PSA (the only WO, and operating airline for that matter, with a J4J agreement) ordered any?
Chip, you can talk about MDA and Midway all you want but two things remain: 1. MDA isn''t ready to fly and won''t be ready for at least 6 months or more. 2. Midway is broke. A broke airline getting a loan from a bankrupt airline doesn''t sound like a good business plan for success. And don''t forget, Midway has yet to accept J4J and may very well vote it down.
I "hear" lots of "talk" about RJ sims being put in old sim bays in PIT. I "hear" lots of "talk" about MDA interviewing and hiring people.
I "hear" lots of "talk" and see no "action", whats the story?
DorkDriver, What is a Dork? Is it a D328? As far as RJs are concerned, the company has had authority to fly, at first 70 and then 140 RJs, before the current agreement. As you know well, the company has never flown as many RJs as they have had contractual approval to fly. I suspect this was a con job to get the pilots to agree to the TA. The pilot group could rationalize sending hundreds more pilots to furlough, because, "They have got those RJ jobs to go to. They REALLY aren't going to be out on the street! Besides, I have got to save MY job (because I have 33 ex-wives or I had to buy my kids each a z3)...even if it was the largest conssionary agreement in the history of the industry." This is why I am leaving U as soon as my business is up and running. This place makes me sick! [:devil:] I know, I know, the company was and did, go ch 11. What good is it to have the TA?...unless you are in the top half of the seniority list...Oh, I get it![:(] Sorry about my rants, but I am really peaved over the last 16 years that I have wasted at this place! And no I am not on the list to be furloughed.

US is unable to add RJs to its network while operating under formal protection and will likely not obtain an MDA RJ until emergence. As a side note, the MDA pilot negotiating committee is being formed and there are six experienced ALPA pilots, who are on the furlough list, who have applied for the positions.

There is some reason to believe PSA and the other "wholly onweds" could receive RJs during the bankruptcy proceeding, but I am not sure of the details on how this would occur.

Midway's US Express operation was approved by the bankruptcy court last week and I have not heard if their anticipated October start-up is still on schedule or not.

The Company and ALPA are committed to J4J and the only way for MDA, Midway, the "wholly owned" or affiliate carriers to get expanded US code share RJ flying is to agree to J4J, otherwise the carrier who rejects this concept will not get expanded US RJ flying.

Recently I had a conversation with Dave Siegel and he told me the company was close to agreeing to a RJ order of 200 firm positions with 300 options.

Assuming the creditors of U want their money back, why would they allow furloughed U pilots to fly RJs at MDA for industry leading pay rates plus 14% for FO and 8% for Captains, when they can have the same aircraft flown by US Air Group pilots for a fraction of the cost.

ALG, PDT and PSA have proposed bottom of the industry rates for any pureJet equipment placed there.

Forgetting the old arguments for a moment and placing yourself in the position of a creditor, what is going to get your money back sooner?
So, does that mean the RJs are just sitting around Brazil ready for us to take delivery? Sorry Chip, but you don't just snap your fingers and wow you get delivery slots for the hottest selling airplane in the world. CoEx, Chautauqua, Mesa, and everybody else wants ERJs too, is the company in a position to get aircraft at the rate at which Dave is talking about? Oh, yeah we can get the CRJs. Whats the wait time on a CRJ? I've heard over a year wait to get a delivery slot. Like I said, if these jets are so important where are they?

TBONE said: Assuming the creditors of U want their money back, why would they allow furloughed U pilots to fly RJs at MDA for industry leading pay rates plus 14% for FO and 8% for Captains, when they can have the same aircraft flown by US Air Group pilots for a fraction of the cost.

Chip answers: Because it's part of the $465 million per year ALPA concession, that worth more than 33 percent of all stakeholder concessions and 60 percent of the employee givebacks. In addition, it's part of the debtor-in-possession (DIP) plan of reorganization, is protected by a 1113 letter, and is part of the agreement between Texas Pacific and the DIP.


Siegel told me he has RJ delivery postions and GECAS, who will likely provide the RJ financing, has 50 EMB-175 positions and 78 options.

In addition, Midway has 30 to 40 RJs sitting on the ramp I believe in Clarksburg, WV & Victorville, CA.

I believe they're coming, in fact they will come at a rate "more than God can count" or what some of the colleagues would refer to as "turbogrowth", except the growth will just be at MDA and J4J partners.

Why take RJ's when the CWA & IAM are going to shut this place down. Enough is enough WITH POOR MANAGEMENT! Now our top tier passengers are getting a taste of what we have complained about all along. Jus shut it down.

Despite the agreement, it's the Creditors who drive the Bankruptcy Bus. Although the Company said it would not seek or support further concessions from the pilot group even by a third party, that third party can still petition the Bankruptcy Court to get the best terms for returning it's investment.

Again, The Creditors, that Third Party that did not sign the ALPA concessionary agreement, should only be interested in returns. Express I pay rates are a significant saving over Industry leading pay rates.

Of course, the fact that the creditors do not petition against MDA may be more indicative of something else going on behind the scenes rather than their imputed acceptance of the newest High-Cost carrier to grace the airline business. From a business standpoint, MDA makes no sense. High costs have brought US Airways to it's knees, surely they will do the same to MDA.

I smell a RAT![:bigsmile:]
Ever hear of a word called "financing"? Where is US going to get the RJ financing at present time, when the very future of the company is in doubt? US doesn't yet have it's ATSB loan guarantee and doesn't yet have full access to its' DIP financing. Where are they going to get the financing for the RJ's until those issues are cleared up? That's the story.
There is one reason for MDA and one reason only... Because it allows US Airways to field large RJ's. This will be one of the few competitive advantages US Airways will have since few other competitors will be able to follow suit. Not only will US Airways now be able to fly more 70 seaters than anyone, they can utilize the new Embraer models while most of the competition has selected the smaller and less capable Canadairs.

The fact that The MDA pilots are able to demand leading wages and work rules is because they are utilizing the mainline pilots' negotiating leverage. But remeber, in comparision to Gangwal's lame proposal to operate 70 seaters at mainline, this will be a bargain for US Airways.

MDA is starting from scratch, with only the pilots having representation. No AFA, IAM, CWA, or TWU representation to start off with, only ALPA. Not to mention the utilization of MDA to "realign" dozens of current mainline and all future expansion stations will dramatically cut costs. I remember one quote that US Airways saved 4 million a year in costs when they transfered ISP to Express.

The big difference between MDA and ALG, PDT or PSA is that Kelly Isom made sure that MDA would fufill a function that the remaining WO pilots could not. Only MDA can operate the 70 seaters, and like everything else with JFJ it's not about costs, it's about negotiating leverage...

How's the quote in the magazine read...? "in business you do not get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate."
In an article in the Augsut 31 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the newpaper wrote, Andrew Nocella, US Airways' vice president for planning, yesterday said he expected MidAtlantic would take possession of 80 regional jets during the next 12 months, with operations "slowly beginning" in the first quarter of 2003 but "rapidly accelerating" during the third quarter.

Siegel told me he has RJ delivery postions and GECAS, who will likely provide the RJ financing, has 50 EMB-175 positions and 78 options.


Didn't the pilots get a scope clause put in at 70 seats (heck, I thought it was still at 50 seats)?
Chip, Any word on which manufacturer US is leaning towards? EMB seems to have a pretty good mix of aircraft, from the EMB 135 to the EMB 175.
ALPA President Captain Duane Worth has appointed the MidAtlantic Airways (MAA) pilot negotiating committee. The committee will consist of:

1. Donn Butkovic - Donn is a mainline Captain, an attorney, was the previous NC Chairman, and was recently re-appointed back to the mainline NC.

2. Dave Belatock - Dave is the current LGA MEC First Officer Rep, is part of the 287, and is scheduled for furlough.

3. John Moon (I do not know the man, but I believe this is his name)- John is a PSA D-328 pilot and I believe their MEC Chairman and has been a negotiator.

In addition, I understand MAA will get 90-seat RJs that will be reconfigured to 76-seats with a First Class section.