mrfish3726
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Who Will Be Next, Ted?
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dc3fanatic
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you still think TED will go away? You would like that as it and Southwest are killling Frontier, both in marketshare and its net effect on your stock price.
Not going to happen.
http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...ndpost&p=313431
mrfish3726
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DC3 read our financials 6.9 million profit for the 2nd quarter. Do you really think we would have not made money if TED was hurting F9 so bad???? UniTED has tried for 12 years now to turn out Frontiers lights and that's not happenend yet. And talk about being big, it sure was big of UniTED to send evacuation flights to Mexico to recover their PAX they left there, NOT. There are alot of pissed Denver customers at UniTED for refusing to send flights to Mexco to bring them home. But don't worry Frontier took care of your stranded passengers. I wonder how loyal those TED customers will be next time they fly south of the borader???? They gave Frontier nothing but cudos, stews said the planes were shuddering because they were yelling and clapping in glee so hard when they landed in DENVER! Thanking Frontier for coming and saving them from sure disaster! So I think our stock against UniTED just went up a few MORE points here in DENVER! 
Can we please discuss DL eliminating Song while moving many of Song's aspects to DL mainline without getting into ANOTHER F9/UA/Ted/Fish pissing match?
I'm all for DL improving their product, but will they get a sufficient ROI out of this?
I'm all for DL improving their product, but will they get a sufficient ROI out of this?
...it is a large capital expense, but I think that when they got DIP financing it was because they walked in the room and said something UA/US/NW haven't...we have a plan. Now, granted, those carriers got financing too, but I would venture to guess a lot of the financing (at DL too) is because the financiers have no where to put the planes they're leasing to those guys...
Me, too, but I am very skeptical that inflight IFE (be it on-demand in seat video or live TV or whatever) produces a positive ROI. IFE might help some carriers achieve profitability, but it certainly isn't a prerequisite. The poster child for this proposition: Southwest, the only consistently long-term profitable airline in the USA. WN's IFE consists solely of silly FA antics and people watching the potential next guest stars of Airline. IFE certainly does not guarantee profitability, as many money-losing airlines feature some sort of IFE.
HPearlyretiree
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Gee, Song is gone, what a huge surprise.
Just like I called it, many months ago. (although anyone outside of an airline marketing department knew it was a bomb)
Airlines within airlines DON'T WORK, ask Continental Lite, Metrojet, etc.
Ted will follow.
Just like I called it, many months ago. (although anyone outside of an airline marketing department knew it was a bomb)
Airlines within airlines DON'T WORK, ask Continental Lite, Metrojet, etc.
Ted will follow.
Seatacus
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I'm impressed..........I have never found an opportunity to use the word: whilst.
WorldTraveler
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Song was somewhat defensible as a competitive tool if you believed that all airlines would offer a comparable in-flight product. It became evident pretty early that the cost of modifying the entire US domestic fleet was impossible and some aircraft such as the MD-80 cannot be realistically retrofitted w/ IFE. The real problem for Song was having only a 199 seat airplane to serve markets that are very seasonal; there are many days of the year when a 70 seat RJ is enough but others where a 250 seat 767 can make money (such as weekends during the winter). Using a single class aircraft in the NE transcon markets was the real deal breaker, though; those markets have a heavy business component to them and flying a single class aircraft just to balance the N-S flying doesn't make sense. Further, IFE is not a primary purchase driver for any airline but it could give DL a significant competitive advantage against other legacy carriers with which DL competes in the primary business markets rather than the secondary markets where LCCs tend to gather. DL's announcement is more of a threat to AA in JFKLAX given that DL will put the right product there and one with better amenities than it is for JetBlue, although DL will be rightsizing its NE-Florida operation which will certainly help everyone involved.
Finally, BK gives DL the opportunity to address costs throughout its network; redeploying assets and correcting mistakes is exactly what BK is for. Flyhigh is right. DL has done more to dramatically change itself in less than 2 months in bankruptcy than any other airline has done since deregulation - with the possible exception of CO during their C11 and C22 years. Given that DL has brought in alot of CO people to turn itself around, it isn't at all unreasonable to think that DL will look as strong if not stronger than CO when this period is over. The moves DL are making are proof that they are shaking things up and aren't willing to admit that what was done before wasn't working. Creditors appreciate that sort of candor, particularly when it's backed up by analysis that proves the moves being proposed are to everyone's benefit.
Finally, BK gives DL the opportunity to address costs throughout its network; redeploying assets and correcting mistakes is exactly what BK is for. Flyhigh is right. DL has done more to dramatically change itself in less than 2 months in bankruptcy than any other airline has done since deregulation - with the possible exception of CO during their C11 and C22 years. Given that DL has brought in alot of CO people to turn itself around, it isn't at all unreasonable to think that DL will look as strong if not stronger than CO when this period is over. The moves DL are making are proof that they are shaking things up and aren't willing to admit that what was done before wasn't working. Creditors appreciate that sort of candor, particularly when it's backed up by analysis that proves the moves being proposed are to everyone's benefit.
dc3fanatic
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FishBreath, Can you tell when SW announced service to Denver?DC3 read our financials 6.9 million profit for the 2nd quarter. Do you really think we would have not made money if TED was hurting F9 so bad???? UniTED has tried for 12 years now to turn out Frontiers lights and that's not happenend yet. And talk about being big, it sure was big of UniTED to send evacuation flights to Mexico to recover their PAX they left there, NOT. There are alot of pissed Denver customers at UniTED for refusing to send flights to Mexco to bring them home. But don't worry Frontier took care of your stranded passengers. I wonder how loyal those TED customers will be next time they fly south of the borader???? They gave Frontier nothing but cudos, stews said the planes were shuddering because they were yelling and clapping in glee so hard when they landed in DENVER! Thanking Frontier for coming and saving them from sure disaster! So I think our stock against UniTED just went up a few MORE points here in DENVER!
And 6.9 is almost rounding error for a company the size of United. I seriously doubt Frontier is a threat to United.
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HPearlyretiree
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So, Song is not going to be run as an airline within an airline, right? So, if Song is such a great sucess, why is it going away? Why all the intense marketing and branding for something that is going away.
If Song was a great sucess, then why this action?
Another dumb marketing stunt.
WorldTraveler
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Not all of DL will become Song-like. Running separate operations is expensive so it doesn't make sense to keep Song as a separate subsidiary. Part of the thinking at the time was that DL had "bad brand equity" so there was a need to distance the fighter brand from mother DL. As AA's CEO has said, it doesn't make sense to only fix part of the problem when all of the airline needs to be fixed (paraphrased). Yes, spending alot on a costly sub-brand is not smart.
DL is adding IFE essentially to its domestic longhaul fleet since the leather seats are already part of the Delta cabin improvement plan (the new leather interiors make some of those older planes look much younger). Not sure about pitch and I'm sure the buy-on-board food is being eliminated since DL says customers have really liked DL's choice of complimentary snacks.
Note, however, that not all of DL is being turned into Song. The domestic shorthaul fleet is not getting IFE nor is the international fleet (which seems a bit backwards). Adding the additional aircraft seems as much to be about finding a solution for the IFE equipped 757s as it does about putting the product where it is most needed. However, since DL's primary transatlantic competitors don't have comparable IFE systems (and satellite television wouldn't work on at least part of a transatlantic flight), DL shouldn't be harmed although they have to save their $ for an upgrade to the int'l product (or to buy 787s which will have a good IFE system on it - remember DL still has about $3B worth of orders outstanding w/ Boeing; it's doubtful that DL will simply walk away from that order but will probably change it considerably.)
DL is adding IFE essentially to its domestic longhaul fleet since the leather seats are already part of the Delta cabin improvement plan (the new leather interiors make some of those older planes look much younger). Not sure about pitch and I'm sure the buy-on-board food is being eliminated since DL says customers have really liked DL's choice of complimentary snacks.
Note, however, that not all of DL is being turned into Song. The domestic shorthaul fleet is not getting IFE nor is the international fleet (which seems a bit backwards). Adding the additional aircraft seems as much to be about finding a solution for the IFE equipped 757s as it does about putting the product where it is most needed. However, since DL's primary transatlantic competitors don't have comparable IFE systems (and satellite television wouldn't work on at least part of a transatlantic flight), DL shouldn't be harmed although they have to save their $ for an upgrade to the int'l product (or to buy 787s which will have a good IFE system on it - remember DL still has about $3B worth of orders outstanding w/ Boeing; it's doubtful that DL will simply walk away from that order but will probably change it considerably.)
