Who's really on top?

[chris perry]

It might not be comparing hourly rates side by side, but the number of people employed in the core function is entirely relevant, Bob.

No matter how you want to spin or discount the underlying data, it doesn't change the fact that AA has twice as many people performing maintenance related functions than any other two airlines combined.

That quote of how many performing maintenance is the 9200 number at best . We could add the flight attendants numbers to the flight Department.Its all a matter of how work groups are bunched in the buget.The numbers can and will be skewed...... The actual cost per mechanic or pilot goes up dramatic just tack on another work group run the numbers. The bottom Line is AMR does the books,the way they see fit...It just matters what line on the report you fall in or are grouped in.These numbers dont mean squat as far as negoiations....Your worth what the market will bear and only what you negotiate.

 

[Bob Owens]

It might not be comparing hourly rates side by side, but the number of people employed in the core function is entirely relevant, Bob.

No matter how you want to spin or discount the underlying data, it doesn't change the fact that AA has twice as many people performing maintenance related functions than any other two airlines combined.

And what does that have to do with wages? NOTHING.

 

[enough already]

That quote of how many performing maintenance is the 9200 number at best . We could add the flight attendants numbers to the flight Department.Its all a matter of how work groups are bunched in the buget.The numbers can and will be skewed......

Don't forget to count all the dead and retired mechs to the list like AA did when we tried to bring a vote to replace the worthless twu...

 

[Buckky]

The bottom Line is AMR does the books,the way they see fit...It just matters what line on the report you fall in or are grouped in.

Does that mean that AA and AE pilots could be grouped together as an expense for AMR instead of calculating each one seperately?

 

[BoeingBoy]

So what you are saying is that the company is using numbers that have asolutely no relevance to our contract.

I seriously doubt that management needs to depend on MIT or the BTS to get their numbers, unlike you or I.

Jim

 

[eolesen]

That quote of how many performing maintenance is the 9200 number at best

I don't doubt that the number turning wrenches is what you say it is, but there's a lot more involved with "performing maintenance..."

Note that Allegiant with 100% outsourcing still has over 100 people associated with maintenance, presumably doing just the oversight process. If they need that many people for one fleet type and a couple dozen airplanes, it's not out of the question to think AA would require close to 3000-4000 people involved with the function.

Someone with access to Jetnet can tell us how many are in the stores title group, but I'll guess there are at least 500 supervisors/managers across the system (using a 20:1 ratio for the L4's and a 100:1 for the L6's, plus directors).

It also wouldn't surprise me to find there are close to 2500 involved with the admin side of things --- functions like QA, manning, lost time, payroll, training, purchasing, engineering, planning, MOC. FAA paperwork compliance drives a lot of heads --

Start adding all that together, and the 14,000 number may not be so unrealistic after all.

 

[Hopeful]

So now we are adding in non-union and management maintenance staff to the mechanic and osm list?
I thought we were sticking to the topic where just mechanics are unrealistic in asking for anything substantial.

 

[Bob Owens]

So now we are adding in non-union and management maintenance staff to the mechanic and osm list?
I thought we were sticking to the topic where just mechanics are unrealistic in asking for anything substantial.

No they are. Those numbers mean nothing because they have nothing to do with our contract. If anything it just goes to show how irelevant their figures are. If they want to hire 6000 people to watch us work thats up to them but it doesnt factor into our wage demands one iota.

 

[Boomer]

Negotiations are just that: negotiations.

Each side seeks to prep the battlefield by placing limits on what can and cannot be introduced: the process is called, "Denial of Use."

IMHO:

The nature in which AMR and the TWU engage negotiations it is not unlike a denial-of-service attack on an individual ISP. Denial of Service: Wikipedia

When one asks, "Who's really on top?", the question is continually reframed around what is the company willing and able to pay.

Shouldn't the question actually be ordered more along the lines of what is in the public interest given that none of the actors in the game are free agents or free traders?

True capitalism in the US Air Carrier Industry has never existed. Despite the ADA of 1979, the web of regulation between and within points of service has not, nor has been structured, to become a creature subject to a laissez-faire form of capitalism. The periodic bailouts of the US air carrier system are designed to ensure that the geographic constraints of other forms of mass transit are foregone in exchange for a smaller footprint, lower cost, faster transaction system of aircraft over rails within the CONUS.

US Flagged carriers are functional utilities, not regulated utilities in the sense that airfares are set by a construct similar to the previous CAB; but, in the current form, US Flagged air carriers are functional utilities in the sense that their operational, regulatory and labor structures are constricted at the top level by the Federal Government through State Department treaties with Foriegn Entities down to State and Municipal Entities regulating the activity at individual airports, air traffic patterns, and transactional capacity in terms of flow control and O&D emplanements/deplanements.

Given the utilitarian nature of the national subsidies granted by the Federal Government to:
1) the points of production: airports;
2) the transmission lines: flight paths;
3) the conductors of the product: the airlines;
4) the motive force allowing conductance: the employees;
5) the units of conductance: the aircraft;

Why wouldn't we seek to upgrade the motive force within the utility to the same degree that we seek to upgrade the point of production, the transmission lines, the conductors and the units of conductance?

If all aircraft maintenance costs the same per hour for all airlines: is there a cost benefit to the American Public in the simple fact that aluminum tubes travelling at .8 plus Mach, some 5-7 Miles above the ground, in temperatures below -25 Deg. F. were not placed with the lowest bid?

 

[Tbag]

Bob Redding is the latest of a long list of management heads to proclaim AA (i.e..TWU) has the highest labor costs in the industry. I guess it must be so since the labor unions are not publicly disputing their claims. It doesn't jive with their own charts on their negotiation's website but still the union(s) are silent. I've been personally told by a TWU representative (e-board member) that we make enough money and should be grateful to have a job. Can the union honestly say they're negotiating in earnest with that mentality coming from the leadership? IS THERE A REAL UNION OUT THERE WILLING TO DISPUTE THE COMPaaNY'S CLAIMS?????

TWU response is silence. On one hand they should consider Redhead's missives as silly and not respond. On the other hand the sheeple expect a response. More to the point. The sheeple are mesmerized by TWU officers and lo longer have the spine to demand anything.

 

[eolesen]

So now we are adding in non-union and management maintenance staff to the mechanic and osm list?
I thought we were sticking to the topic where just mechanics are unrealistic in asking for anything substantial.

Costs are costs -- it doesn't matter if the paycheck is going to a wrench, the guy in dock planning, or the clerk who has to manage all the timecard exceptions in Autota. It's still an expense AMR carries that other airlines don't necessarily have to carry (or don't have to carry to the extent that AMR does with the size of the TUL & AFW headcount).

 

[Hopeful]

Costs are costs -- it doesn't matter if the paycheck is going to a wrench, the guy in dock planning, or the clerk who has to manage all the timecard exceptions in Autota. It's still an expense AMR carries that other airlines don't necessarily have to carry (or don't have to carry to the extent that AMR does with the size of the TUL & AFW headcount).

So roughly 5000 people to support 9200 or thereabouts A&P's.....Wow,,,,supervisors, managers, directors, lost time admins, clerks,,,,,,

Here's some cost cutting for you.
Too many supervisors per mechanic...Get rid of a few. Theyre like baby sitters anyway.
Lost time administrators...get rid of them all and give that function BACK to the supervisors.
Clerks to input log sheets...Utilize electronic logbooks and eliminate those folks and help save a few thousand trees a year that AA kills in terms of paper usage.
We do not need a VP of base maintenance, a Director would suffice.
The line maintenance directors' numbers could be reduced as well. Instead of NE, SE, Central, DFW, and West coast directors...One for the East Coast, one Central region and one for the West coast.


If we are going to advocate getting rid of mechanics and outsource more work,,,,no one should be exempt.

 

[MERV]

Theirs never will be a true value A/C techs skills because their are others who are will to do it for less cutting down on pay for skilled laborers. That goes for everyone who hold any type of skill. So I guess couple people here believe that Sr management main job is to cut salaries and employees to cut cost and become profitable. Thats completely wrong they're there to asset how to bring new revenue or create new stream of revenue for the company. If not you'll be in same problem in the future asking employees for concessions because the cost is still there from the loses that company had and has. Perfect example UA asked their employees for concessions after few years you saw what happen BK.

 

[Tex-Mech]

TWU response is silence. On one hand they should consider Redhead's missives as silly and not respond. On the other hand the sheeple expect a response. More to the point. The sheeple are mesmerized by TWU officers and lo longer have the spine to demand anything.

I do believe Redings bs was in response to 562 and 565 negotiations updates, both of which made the Dallas Morning News blog. In fact Reding uses the same "common ground" words that 565 used, although Reding says it can still be found. I think the 565 update spoke to the silence coming from the international, the lack of response is another example. Reding also said to read TWU communications, I guess just not the local updates.

BTW...I did see a letter floating around the shop the other day that Don V wrote to 565 looking to discipline there president. Imagine that, speak the truth and get banished. I'll have to ask my president when he is going to speak up.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Costs are costs -- it doesn't matter if the paycheck is going to a wrench, the guy in dock planning, or the clerk who has to manage all the timecard exceptions in Autota. It's still an expense AMR carries that other airlines don't necessarily have to carry (or don't have to carry to the extent that AMR does with the size of the TUL & AFW headcount).

AA saves millions in doing overhaul in house. If they didnt it would have been gone a long time ago. Its all about the bottom line.
😉