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chipmunn
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[A href=http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101021028-366310,00.html]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101021028-366310,00.html[/A]
Why productivity is the labor issue between mature airlines & Southwest
OP
chipmunn
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[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]Time Magazine said, [SPAN class=subhead]How does Southwest soar above its money-losing rivals? Its employees work harder and smarter, in return for job security and a share of the profits.[/SPAN][/FONT][/P]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3][SPAN class=subhead]Chip comments: When compared to the low cost airline business model, which is profitable during this economic financial crisis, the two glaring labor expense issues are productivity and the national pension crisis. If US Airways and its employees do not reach consensual accords on these issues, our airline could end up liquidating if revenue continues to deteriorate. [/SPAN][/FONT][/P]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3][SPAN class=subhead]Chip[/SPAN][BR][/P][/FONT]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3][SPAN class=subhead]Chip comments: When compared to the low cost airline business model, which is profitable during this economic financial crisis, the two glaring labor expense issues are productivity and the national pension crisis. If US Airways and its employees do not reach consensual accords on these issues, our airline could end up liquidating if revenue continues to deteriorate. [/SPAN][/FONT][/P]
[P][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3][SPAN class=subhead]Chip[/SPAN][BR][/P][/FONT]
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chipmunn
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AOG:
Having a single fleet type is a tremendous advantage and your comments regarding WN operating just the B-737 is accurate.
One example at US is that a pilot qualified to fly the A-319 can also fly the A-320 and A-321, but not the B757. This creates less economies of scale and higher costs.
US is moving towards rationalizing the fleet and this is an important element to our restructuring efforts to lower CASM.
Chip
Having a single fleet type is a tremendous advantage and your comments regarding WN operating just the B-737 is accurate.
One example at US is that a pilot qualified to fly the A-319 can also fly the A-320 and A-321, but not the B757. This creates less economies of scale and higher costs.
US is moving towards rationalizing the fleet and this is an important element to our restructuring efforts to lower CASM.
Chip
I guess having a somewhat rationalized Boeing Fleet has no bearing on thier ability to generate profit either? Southwest was smart enough to stay and dance with the date that brought them to the party...and that's paying off for them too. Again..an example of the benefits of Un-Limited and Indigionous resources that a Boeing provides. I guess having a true Leader at the controls for years didn't hurt either. They have a plan and stick with it..We have changes in everything(Leadership, Names, Colors and Acft Types)..and the results are still the same
![1.gif']](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2FBy+and+large..I%27m+sick+of+hearing+about+We+the+Employee%27s....We+are+what+is+making+this+work...inspite+of+the+goofs+in+CCY+%28+Dave+being+an+exception+to+date%29%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F1.gif%27%5D+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Southwest+has+always+been+a+People+Oriented+Company++That+breeds+a+winning+spirit.++It%27s+not+about+the+grass+roots+employee%27s+being+less+intelligent+or+less+productive...it%27s+how+they+are+lead+..and+how+the+business+plan+is+put+into+motion...and+on+that+note%2C+WN+takes+the+prize+everytime.+++Person+for+Person..U+can+hang+with+any+airline...so+them+being+smarter+or+better+doesn%27t+flush.++But+I%27ll+bet+this+story+will+sure+pump+them+up%21%21++++++++++++I%27m+certain+there+was+thought+behind+that+too%21%21%21++%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F1.gif%27%5D&hash=ebdcac0f06a4fcfb73e038f1b5c24d80)
Chip comments: When compared to the low cost airline business model, which is profitable during this economic financial crisis, the two glaring labor expense issues are productivity and the national pension crisis. If US Airways and its employees do not reach consensual accords on these issues, our airline could end up liquidating if revenue continues to deteriorate.
Chip
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Well then I fully believe this airline will go belly up. I have yet to hear one person tell me they are open for more give backs. The people who voted to accept what we are now living and the older people close to retirement will NOT agree to more give backs. The general feeling is this; If this airline is that bad off, than let it die so we can move forward with our lives. Reality may dictate more give backs are a must, but I predict the IAM of which I am a member will no longer participate in any kind of give back, no matter what the consequences, and this is another reality that all the pleading and reasoning on these boards will not change.
I am personally looking forward and this company is no longer in my radar range, this is true for most mechanics I talk too, which are plenty!
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Chip
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Well then I fully believe this airline will go belly up. I have yet to hear one person tell me they are open for more give backs. The people who voted to accept what we are now living and the older people close to retirement will NOT agree to more give backs. The general feeling is this; If this airline is that bad off, than let it die so we can move forward with our lives. Reality may dictate more give backs are a must, but I predict the IAM of which I am a member will no longer participate in any kind of give back, no matter what the consequences, and this is another reality that all the pleading and reasoning on these boards will not change.
I am personally looking forward and this company is no longer in my radar range, this is true for most mechanics I talk too, which are plenty!
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chipmunn
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[P]Another low cost, productive airline posts a profit:[/P]
[P][A href=http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/021023/airlines_airtran_earns_1.html]http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/021023/airlines_airtran_earns_1.html[/A][/P]
[P][A href=http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/021023/airlines_airtran_earns_1.html]http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/021023/airlines_airtran_earns_1.html[/A][/P]
What I find intriguing is how many 'productivity' issues flow from management initiative.
1. One fleet type - management initiative
2. Under-utilized airports as a resource - ditto
3. point to point system - ditto
4. etc., etc.
There has never been anything in any labor contract at U that prohibits any of these items, and we've only had a decade since the merger to implement any one of these items.
And, if U routinely places in the top DOT OT stats, yet WN routinely gets more hours per day, per a/c, well - who schedules these puppies?
I've been busting a gut for ten years trying to make this deal work - but I (and all front line grunts) can't do it by ourselves.
1. One fleet type - management initiative
2. Under-utilized airports as a resource - ditto
3. point to point system - ditto
4. etc., etc.
There has never been anything in any labor contract at U that prohibits any of these items, and we've only had a decade since the merger to implement any one of these items.
And, if U routinely places in the top DOT OT stats, yet WN routinely gets more hours per day, per a/c, well - who schedules these puppies?
I've been busting a gut for ten years trying to make this deal work - but I (and all front line grunts) can't do it by ourselves.
[blockquote]
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On 10/23/2002 1:17:17 PM chipmunn wrote:
AOG:
Having a single fleet type is a tremendous advantage and your comments regarding WN operating just the B-737 is accurate.
One example at US is that a pilot qualified to fly the A-319 can also fly the A-320 and A-321, but not the B757. This creates less economies of scale and higher costs.
Chip
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[/blockquote]
No Kidding Chip!! Is that what we have been doing? How the heck did I miss that?
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On 10/23/2002 1:17:17 PM chipmunn wrote:
AOG:
Having a single fleet type is a tremendous advantage and your comments regarding WN operating just the B-737 is accurate.
One example at US is that a pilot qualified to fly the A-319 can also fly the A-320 and A-321, but not the B757. This creates less economies of scale and higher costs.
Chip
----------------
[/blockquote]
No Kidding Chip!! Is that what we have been doing? How the heck did I miss that?
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chipmunn
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Dio:
The issue between WN and US on point-to-point versus hub flying creates productivity problems, but at this point for major airlines this is not an easy problem to address.
You simply cannot eliminate the hubs, which is not economically unfeasible, but times between banks are inefficient and increase costs across-the-board.
AA is attempting to address the hub flying labor productivity problem with its test program at ORD to space out flights, which is being expanded to other hubs. This is not a new plan and has been tried in the industry before, but has been largely unsuccessful.
One area that can fix this problem is what is called a contingent work force: one that is made up of part time employees, contractors, and consultants. Obviously, this type of idea would not go over well with labor and at US Dave Siegel understands this.
Thus, mature airline employees may have two options in the future: Either look for ways to be more productive to reduce the labor cost differential, which would permit incentives to cost effectively grow an airline or continue to have problems that could lead to the failure of an airline.
Chip
The issue between WN and US on point-to-point versus hub flying creates productivity problems, but at this point for major airlines this is not an easy problem to address.
You simply cannot eliminate the hubs, which is not economically unfeasible, but times between banks are inefficient and increase costs across-the-board.
AA is attempting to address the hub flying labor productivity problem with its test program at ORD to space out flights, which is being expanded to other hubs. This is not a new plan and has been tried in the industry before, but has been largely unsuccessful.
One area that can fix this problem is what is called a contingent work force: one that is made up of part time employees, contractors, and consultants. Obviously, this type of idea would not go over well with labor and at US Dave Siegel understands this.
Thus, mature airline employees may have two options in the future: Either look for ways to be more productive to reduce the labor cost differential, which would permit incentives to cost effectively grow an airline or continue to have problems that could lead to the failure of an airline.
Chip
UAL777flyer
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I think we're gradually going to see the major airlines migrate from defined pension programs to incentive-laden profit sharing programs that aren't susceptible to the funding shortfall problems when the economy is in recession. If you think about it, there are very few industries today that offer defined pension programs. Most have the 401K and profit-sharing. While I'll be the first to say that a pension is definately a plus, I think profit-sharing is a better system because it allows the employees of the company to collectively control their success. It gives more incentive for everyone to work together.
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chipmunn
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[P]Pension plan and productivity changes are being discussed within ALPA. In addition, I suspect similar changes could happen within all labor groups including the pilots. For the record, I endorse these changes for ALPA as well as the other labor groups.[/P]
[P]Chip [/P]
[P]Chip [/P]
[blockquote]
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On 10/23/2002 2
40 PM UAL777flyer wrote:
I think we're gradually going to see the major airlines migrate from defined pension programs to incentive-laden profit sharing programs that aren't susceptible to the funding shortfall problems when the economy is in recession. If you think about it, there are very few industries today that offer defined pension programs. Most have the 401K and profit-sharing. While I'll be the first to say that a pension is definately a plus, I think profit-sharing is a better system because it allows the employees of the company to collectively control their success. It gives more incentive for everyone to work together.
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[/blockquote]
I strongly agree UAL777flyer!! This will only help mold or jell a more Team Oriented enviroment. The current plans , even when working , created an atmosphere or perception that Something was owed just because Employee X was good enough to show up. Dressing for the game is one thing...playing in the game only really counts when you are playing to win all the time. We need a business plan...and maybe a re-incarnation of Vince Lombardi...right now I'd settle for the ghost of Tom Landry..if he whould have us?
![2.gif']](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2FProfit+sharing+would+be+a+heck+of+a+motivator%21%21...especially+if+it+was+as+liberal+as+our+managements+performance+based+bonuses+of+the+past.%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F2.gif%27%5D&hash=7570bf1128fee4076cb417d17005e0be)
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On 10/23/2002 2
40 PM UAL777flyer wrote: I think we're gradually going to see the major airlines migrate from defined pension programs to incentive-laden profit sharing programs that aren't susceptible to the funding shortfall problems when the economy is in recession. If you think about it, there are very few industries today that offer defined pension programs. Most have the 401K and profit-sharing. While I'll be the first to say that a pension is definately a plus, I think profit-sharing is a better system because it allows the employees of the company to collectively control their success. It gives more incentive for everyone to work together.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I strongly agree UAL777flyer!! This will only help mold or jell a more Team Oriented enviroment. The current plans , even when working , created an atmosphere or perception that Something was owed just because Employee X was good enough to show up. Dressing for the game is one thing...playing in the game only really counts when you are playing to win all the time. We need a business plan...and maybe a re-incarnation of Vince Lombardi...right now I'd settle for the ghost of Tom Landry..if he whould have us?
usfliboi
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Ill agree some productivity changes can be made i dont think they are make or break for this airline! Rational fleet type ok makes sense to me.... I say chip lead the way by example and volunteer to to take those productivity changes effective with your next pay check ! If these were make or break issues why werent they settled during the reopening of the contract?
Chip..I think a number of profit and productivity issues could be negotiated and secured , if the company dedicated itself to winning back the trust of both it's employee's and customers. Both areas need a ton of bolstering and shoring up! The employee's are scared to give up anything beyonds what's been given...because all we are hearing is negative based on a speculative future. This again is where a defined plan being shared with us , may open up some of the thinking peoples eyes?. We both know there is an element that you will never reach. The last round of concessions was a hard sell..especially with the IAM. Then within days of them getting what they asked for..they comeback with Ooops , We were wrong..we need to furlough more people , park more planes...and by the way, we need more from those that remain with us. Things like this do not breed confidence in the ranks. This solidifies bitterness and dis-trust among the rank and file...and that's something we can ill afford. Here again...a defined and achievable plan needs to be presented...and the bitter pills may have to be swallowed to facilitate the plan? Folks need to know exactly what's going to take place...otherwise they are going to buck the tide till the bitter end this time. Maybe the Pilots will share your views? I doubt if many within the IAM ranks are going to bite the bullet the second time , un-less they see everything spelled out in blood ..and with and binding oath. Our passengers need to know that we are still going to be here too! They are convinced that all we full-service carriers are screwing them...hince the exodus to the low cost carriers....we have the added strike against us in regards to the stigma of BK. Note the number of articles written about Should I go ahead and use my frequent flyer awards before U goes belly-up? We need to start promoting confidence..not breeding un-certainty!! That my friends , needs to come from the top!!!!
Chip;
USAIR should have gone after the productivity improvements first. Employees that keep their pay and benifits are more likely to give max effort and input in order to help the company. The results can be suprising, AA did very well with their 'Ideas in AAction program. I know, money is not a motivator,(how do you guys say that with a straight face?) Can you really see a USAIR employee racing across the snow in his snowmobile to help the company that not only cut his pay, vacation and holidays but then turned around and gave $6million in bonuses to what they obviously consider more deserving employees?
USAIR should have gone after the productivity improvements first. Employees that keep their pay and benifits are more likely to give max effort and input in order to help the company. The results can be suprising, AA did very well with their 'Ideas in AAction program. I know, money is not a motivator,(how do you guys say that with a straight face?) Can you really see a USAIR employee racing across the snow in his snowmobile to help the company that not only cut his pay, vacation and holidays but then turned around and gave $6million in bonuses to what they obviously consider more deserving employees?
