Tilton has been making changes in the front offices. He's just done it quietly. As for Brace, are you suggesting that you cut loose the CFO when he's a key player during the BK reorg? I'd bet that Brace is replaced within three months after UAL emerges.whatkindoffreshhell said:
Will United Get The Loan
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WorldTraveler
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Fly,
it's not personal and it's not about Delta.
The information is not accurate - whether you just copied or pasted or wrote it yourself. A read of the responses under the posting you referenced was just as doubtful of the authenticity of the supposed conversation.
it's not personal and it's not about Delta.
The information is not accurate - whether you just copied or pasted or wrote it yourself. A read of the responses under the posting you referenced was just as doubtful of the authenticity of the supposed conversation.
World,
As long as you believe there is no problem, then I am sure there is not one.
I read the same post on the ALPA forum that was posted by FLY. You don't DL has any problems? Good. You probably sleep very well at night.
However, you might be surprised at the results of the industry shuffle. At least I hope so.
As long as you believe there is no problem, then I am sure there is not one.
I read the same post on the ALPA forum that was posted by FLY. You don't DL has any problems? Good. You probably sleep very well at night.
However, you might be surprised at the results of the industry shuffle. At least I hope so.
WorldTraveler
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I've never doubted or stated that Delta or any other airline in the legacy category has problems and severe ones but I think you are fanciful if you think Delta is going to disappear. What I have said is that Delta and American are in a much better positions than United simply by virtue of not being in bankruptcy and having to beg for help from the federal government as if their life depended on it.
If it isn't apparent to you, Delta is going down exactly the same path American went down a year ago in seeking dramatic reductions from unionized employees and creditors. United actually asked for help first, nobody believed them, and the whole lot - employees, creditors, and leasing companies are paying big time for it now. American's case was quite a bit more credible after United's chapter 11 filing and AA looks pretty good RELATIVE to the other legacy carriers now. Delta's case is even more compelling and Delta will likely figure out how to do things even better than even American did by looking at AA's experience.
It is not arrogant to think that DL will end up better off than United. DL happened to have the good fortune of having access to more money at key times post 9/11 and thus has been able to stay afloat longer. However, Delta is no longer willing to pay well above rates for anything - labor, leases, or debt and will either get want it wants or file chapter 11. Given the horrific state of the industry, there is no one who will let Delta do that because the price to be paid in bankruptcy is much higher than out of bankruptcy. The reality is that pilots and planes from the legacy carriers are being parked or furloughed and are not being put into service at the LCCs that are growing. Everyone will lose in bankruptcy and no one can deny that they will have to give Delta help; it will either come voluntarily or in bankruptcy.
Being first is sometimes a good thing but in the case of reorganizing finances in the airline industry, being a follower is a far more comfortable position to be in.
If it isn't apparent to you, Delta is going down exactly the same path American went down a year ago in seeking dramatic reductions from unionized employees and creditors. United actually asked for help first, nobody believed them, and the whole lot - employees, creditors, and leasing companies are paying big time for it now. American's case was quite a bit more credible after United's chapter 11 filing and AA looks pretty good RELATIVE to the other legacy carriers now. Delta's case is even more compelling and Delta will likely figure out how to do things even better than even American did by looking at AA's experience.
It is not arrogant to think that DL will end up better off than United. DL happened to have the good fortune of having access to more money at key times post 9/11 and thus has been able to stay afloat longer. However, Delta is no longer willing to pay well above rates for anything - labor, leases, or debt and will either get want it wants or file chapter 11. Given the horrific state of the industry, there is no one who will let Delta do that because the price to be paid in bankruptcy is much higher than out of bankruptcy. The reality is that pilots and planes from the legacy carriers are being parked or furloughed and are not being put into service at the LCCs that are growing. Everyone will lose in bankruptcy and no one can deny that they will have to give Delta help; it will either come voluntarily or in bankruptcy.
Being first is sometimes a good thing but in the case of reorganizing finances in the airline industry, being a follower is a far more comfortable position to be in.
Not really. DL right now is in better shape than UA. Not immensely better shape, but in the current market every little bit helps. If DL can get the costs down without entering bankruptcy first, it'll go from a little bit better shape to much better shape.Fly said:
UA's doing better now than they were a couple of years ago, no doubt. But they're not out of the woods yet by any stretch of the imagination.
WorldTraveler
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Somehow thinking that United is doing better because their costs are lower is missing the whole point that they are in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is extraordinarily risky in any industry but even more so in the airline industry. Let us never forget that UAL is currently being run under the auspices of the court who is at the present time more interest in protecting the interests of UAL's creditors than anything else - that is the nature of bankruptcy law. Since UAL has still not developed a sustainably profitable business plan, it is only going to get more difficult for United, its employees, and its creditors which will strain relationships and limit the ability of the company to effectively compete against other companies, legacy and LCC, that have not gone through the process.
Let's not also lose sight of the fact that AMR and Delta have carefully controlled the information they have provided to the financial community. It is no surprise that financial analysts' assessment of Delta has deteriorated in response to Delta management's continued statements that they will cut costs or file for bankruptcy. Delta has quit borrowing money to prove that they will run out of money if they don't get concessions. AMR did the very same thing 1 year ago; their stock price nearly dipped to $1 before taking off the day after the wage concessions were announced. In AMR and Delta's case, the company was clearly in control of the situation while UAL simply ran out of money to pay its bills. Accordingly, AA and Delta plus NW and CO are in remarkably different and better positions than United because the companies still control their own fate. You can never convince any thinking person that a company in bankruptcy is in better shape than one that is not.
Let's not also lose sight of the fact that AMR and Delta have carefully controlled the information they have provided to the financial community. It is no surprise that financial analysts' assessment of Delta has deteriorated in response to Delta management's continued statements that they will cut costs or file for bankruptcy. Delta has quit borrowing money to prove that they will run out of money if they don't get concessions. AMR did the very same thing 1 year ago; their stock price nearly dipped to $1 before taking off the day after the wage concessions were announced. In AMR and Delta's case, the company was clearly in control of the situation while UAL simply ran out of money to pay its bills. Accordingly, AA and Delta plus NW and CO are in remarkably different and better positions than United because the companies still control their own fate. You can never convince any thinking person that a company in bankruptcy is in better shape than one that is not.
WorldTraveler said:
Virgin Group low-cost carrier will have SFO hub, New York headquarters
According to Tuesday's New York Times, The Virgin Group plans to launch a low-cost carrier in the United States. The airline will locate its headquarters in New York City, and San Francisco will be its principal hub. The Virgin Group also operates international carrier Virgin Atlantic, European carrier Virgin Express and Australian carrier Virgin Blue
ohcaptainron
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WorldTraveler says,
"Let us never forget that UAL is currently being run under the auspices of the court who is at the present time more interest in protecting the interests of UAL's creditors than anything else - that is the nature of bankruptcy law. Since UAL has still not developed a sustainably profitable business plan, it is only going to get more difficult for United, its employees, and its creditors which will strain relationships and limit the ability of the company to effectively compete against other companies, legacy and LCC, that have not gone through the process."
Worldtraveler: your statement is factually incorrect, the purpose and interest of the Bankruptcy court by LAW is to PRESERVE THE ESTATE. The corporation if you will. It is to consider the interests of parties namely the creditors within THAT context. THAT IS THE NATURE OF BANKRUPTCY LAW. Get it right, DAL will be filing within 120 days. That is the only workable solution to restructure the mountains of debt that Delta and the rest of the industry face. DELTA ALPA is painfully aware of this. As far as UAL business plan goes no one really knows the details, but I do believe there is more pain to come. Get use to it, it will be a reality for every legacy carrier. Keep in mind that despite the current oil price that UAL and only UAL is restructuring its long term debt, this is really the straw that will ultimitly break the legacy carriers back, so you see DAL really has no choice irregardless of what outcome they have with the pilots.
Good luck!
"Let us never forget that UAL is currently being run under the auspices of the court who is at the present time more interest in protecting the interests of UAL's creditors than anything else - that is the nature of bankruptcy law. Since UAL has still not developed a sustainably profitable business plan, it is only going to get more difficult for United, its employees, and its creditors which will strain relationships and limit the ability of the company to effectively compete against other companies, legacy and LCC, that have not gone through the process."
Worldtraveler: your statement is factually incorrect, the purpose and interest of the Bankruptcy court by LAW is to PRESERVE THE ESTATE. The corporation if you will. It is to consider the interests of parties namely the creditors within THAT context. THAT IS THE NATURE OF BANKRUPTCY LAW. Get it right, DAL will be filing within 120 days. That is the only workable solution to restructure the mountains of debt that Delta and the rest of the industry face. DELTA ALPA is painfully aware of this. As far as UAL business plan goes no one really knows the details, but I do believe there is more pain to come. Get use to it, it will be a reality for every legacy carrier. Keep in mind that despite the current oil price that UAL and only UAL is restructuring its long term debt, this is really the straw that will ultimitly break the legacy carriers back, so you see DAL really has no choice irregardless of what outcome they have with the pilots.
Good luck!
BillLumbergh
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OK, we know the answer, so this one will close and we'll continue in the other thread.
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